‘PRs versus Citizens’ debate rages on in cyberspace
August 19th, 2009 | 
Author: From our Correspondent
The letter written by PR Ms Agarwal who threaten to leave Singapore if her children are not given equal chance in Primary 1 registration has continued to attract criticisms from Singaporeans with many describing her as an “obnoxious” PR and asking her to “bugger off” back to India.
Wrote Ghostrider666:
“Let’s not lose sight of the issue here. In this case, Ms Agrawal, the PR, is the person who has a lot to grumble about if her daughter fails to get into a Good school, …….Ms Agrawal is the one who says that she will ‘bugger off’ if her daughter can’t get into a GOOD school here. So, I say let her ‘bugger off’. We don’t care. It’s her wish.”
Arthurl felt citizens are entitled to their priviledges and do not have to account to anybody:
“Come off it Mrs Agarwal. All citizens of any countries have a right to their privileges and we do not owe you an explanation…..We do NOT owe you an explanation. If you are so adamant of your stand, make a U Turn and head back to where you came from and see what type of privilege you have in your own country. So do not try to assert your rights!”
Many Singaporeans are outraged that PRs are enjoying almost the same benefits with them without the accompanying responsibilities.
jpkyong wants the government to impose time-limit for PRs:
“Corrective action by the Govt is long overdue. There should be a time-limit of 5 years for all PRs to take up citizenship or leave. All countries have this restriction except Singapore. Why are we allowing these free-loading foreign leeches to make suckers out of our people? Don’t we have any more self-respect as a nation?”
jojo2008 wrote about his own personal experience of PRs “exploiting” the system for their benefit:
“I have colleagues and friends who’s been working here for years, and exploit the PR system:
- Indian national working here for more than 10 years become citizen, (Yes) to enjoy baby bonus and buy HDB while wife is a PR.
- Malaysian couple run a successful (well known) business here becomes a citizen in order to buy HDB, meanwhile son (my friend who actually told me this), who’s had a singapore education since young, is not a citizen and does not see the need to, today has a business in johore but is actually living in singapore cos he’s clients are here.
- Indonesian with a singapore education since young declares a income (from his “business”) whenever he needs to renew his PR status actually make money buying and selling condos here.
- Australian colleague here for more than 10 years secured PR status as a form of security as it buys him time and allows him to hang around singapore should he loses his current job.
There are quite a number of foreigners who’s doing just for this reason. And frankly, most of them are mid level managers whose jobs can easily be done by singaporeans. Unfortunately, these so call “foreign talents” already have their own network here, and any vacancies available are thus taken by them.”
Some are peeved by the government’s pro-foreigner policy at the expense of the interests of citizens:
Wrote Trofeo:
“Many other countries also adopt very open policies that allow foreigners into their country and workforce. But the difference between they way they have gone about it versus the way Singapore has gone about it is this- They are very clear about their priorities. They welcome foreigners but their citizens will always enjoy certain privileges and advantages over foreigners. For eg. before any company can hire a foreigner, they need to prove that they have taken the necessary measures to try and fill the position locally. Only then are they allowed to hire a foreigner. In Singapore, citizens and foreigners compete for jobs on a equal footing. Singaporean males may even be disadvantaged compared to their foreign counterparts because of their annual “downtime” due to their reservist obligations.”
AbolishNs had a stunning revelation:
“I served almost 20 yrs in grassroot org; I recently learnt that a 1st gen PR [ who didn't serve NS ] simply serve 12 mths in a Resident Committee – can register his eldest child during Phase 2B for pri sch of his choice. This is more priority than our ordinary NS Men’s child. I verified and confirmed this with People’s Assoc.”
In spite of MM Lee’s exhortation to Singaporeans to accept and welcome foreigners with open arms as they are “vital” to our economy, many Singaporeans remained unconvinced.
The rapid influx of foreigners into Singapore has changed the demographics of the population dramatically. Some of these newcomers are not able to speak a simple word of English.
Repeated calls by the government to foreigners to “adapt” to the local culture has gone unheeded as enclaves began to emerge in the HDB heartlands.
The government has even gone of its way to use taxpayers’ monies to organize events to make the PRs “feel at home”.
With such a “caring” government, it is little wonder that most PRs will opt to remain as PRs for now since it doesn’t bring them additional benefit to become citizens.
PRs are not eligible to vote to take part in elections. Then again, there are many citizens out there who have never even voted once in their lives.
EDITORS’ NOTE:
Selected comments taken from ST Discussion Board
Posted in Editorial
This is the kind of OVERBEARING OBNOXIOUS OPPRESSION by the PR minority against the CITIZENRY majority.
It is the same of some foreign scholars DEMANDING not just more scholarship and even A PRESUMED ENTITLED RIGHT TO MEDDLE WITH OUR DOMESTIC POLITICS as a package of privileges.
Singaporeans debating on domestic politics (other then cyberspace) is imprisoned within Hong Lim Park under ILLEGAL CAMERA SURVEILLANCE. The Government will NOT even explain the TH debacle in Parliament.
The GUEST has become the HOST ordering the caterpillar mentality citizenry into submission????
Is this very funny????? OR IS THIS COUNTRY GOING TO THE DOGS????
Singaporeans, Wake Up. This is your land, this is your country, this is your home – is this true or hollow brainwashing propaganda????
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And in wartime, while we lesser mortals have to shed blood to defend the country, these quitters from their own countries will flee to safety and return to reclaim what they formerly had after everything is over.
Maybe we should detain these quitters at gunpoint and force them to run over minefields to clear the way or to become cannon fodder for our SAF boys instead. After all, if they want to profit at the people’s expense, then they must also die to protect the people at whose expense they benefitted.
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PRs… birds of passage, migratory birds escaping the cold to warmer place, to feed and when time comes, fly home. That’s what PRs does.
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Alas an issue that brings the citizens of Singapore together similarly to a foreign military threat. Such policies managed to do what a young country’s government failed to do for many years, bringing the people together in one heart and one mind.
Congratulations Singaporean CITIZENS, We are pledging ourselves as one united people, regardless of Race, Language or Religion.
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The Government asks you to welcome the foreigners.
I ask of you, dear Singaporeans, to be hostile and repulsive towards all these dirty foreign scumbags.
Do not hire them.
Do not help them in any way.
Do not talk to them.
Isolate them and make their stay in Singapore an unpleasant one.
When you see them and their kids in the shopping mall or the playground, ask them to get the hell out of Singapore.
Please please please do that. This is our only way left.
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The old man thinks he owns the country, not sporeans citizens born and bred here. So this superior old being thinks he owe us no explanation, no accountability. He don’t mind replacing us all with new immigrants. No wonder the new immigrants are so arrogant, the media are propaganding their ‘importance’ to spore.
The new immigrants are a tool to keep us all controlled under the old man’s thumbs.
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We got below replacement birth rates ( NS also at fault here but that is another argument for another day (1) . On top of that 30 percent of our top brains left the country SPH highed this point. ( I would argue mainly cause of NS (2).
Thus to maintain population at current , you need NEW citizens.
To get new citizens , you need first to bring them in as FT. However few of them become citizens because of NS (3). Thus to compensate for (3) govt need to ENLARGE the FT pool and thus lowering the quality overall. This make sg become a international prostitutes for PR and Citizenship and we become the butt of FT jokes. This enlargement is still not working, so sg become to go on overdrive and even more desperate. That is how we got the FT problem we are now all talking about.
So you see , from point 1 to point 3, NS is at the heart of the FT problem. It goes beyond the even the FT issue and strike into the core of our citizen talent pool by degrading it year by year , decade by decade.
NS IS KILLING SG.
Options
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BoyCott on Wed, 19th Aug 2009 4:24 pm
Why shd we listen to you? We would rather listen to our government of 44 years. S’pore’s BEST in ASEAN and the world!
Might you be one of those (maybe not even in S’pore) you know who lurking outside the airport & mrt station?
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My ancestors toil and contribute to what is Singapore today as do other natural Singaporeans! I was born here since day one and I pay taxes since day one! Good or Bad, I will always be a Singaporean and i will defend in the front line if ever there is a need? I welcome people who come here to stay for good and contribute to the society of Singapore! Question is : how many of them will stay here for good or will leave should there be a need to defend this country and how many will leave one day to enjoy the retirement benefits that is abundant in many First Class Countries?
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i shouldn’t think there is anything wrong with someone coming to a country to work or live when that country opens its doors to them. challenge not why they come, because everyone has a right to find a better life, but why perhaps that door seems to be open way too wide and untimely.
if your issue is with their loyalty then extend your topic of discussion to singaporeans who are also here to make a buck and go as soon as the going gets tough, those who have not even a single strand of willingness to defend this nation.
there are many kinds of people among either the ‘native’ or the ‘non-native’. please do not conjure up a them vs us injustice just because your frustration happens to get especially jumpy in times of economic depression.
(it would be rather cool though if that jumpiness could be channeled into conspiracy theories of lee-the-too-much-fire-in-the-head trying to rule the world with singapore as the milking base. )
btw, i am a singapore citizen, born and bred.
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At the end of the day, the crux of all the problems is still the 66% who give pap a free hand and sold away the future of our country.
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IMO anger shouldn’t be misdirected towards PRs or foreigners.
As “lin” had pointed out: “..everyone has a right to find a better life..”.
The root of the problem lies with the policy makers who bend over to accommodate foreigners.
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Singapore has always been a welcoming and inclusive society. We never had a real controversy with foreign migrants here – it is NOT a generational “rites of passage and entry” tests for new citizens.
The fabric of his nation was only recently ripped apart with a fantastic influx of migrants – thrashy completely outnumber quality most likely GIVEN THE SPEED AT WHICH IT WAS RUSHED IN without the kind of rigour that you find in Australian or Canadian immigration. It is done in the blindfold of Singaporean eyes and with the silent pretend I don’t know bheaviour in MSM.
The culture shock upset Singaporeans when immigration is now serving the tool of political ideology of “buying” votes of seduced (would be???) migrant by giving them privileges denied to locals.
Who could be blind and indifference to these OVERT DISCRIMINATION against those who already contributed the most relative to those who are reaping the gains cheerfully, no-loyalty-asked and laughing at our stupidity of national pysche and leadership.
The unspoken changed rule is who contribute most get last and least while leadership walks around town with a hoversack on their backs proudly proclaining their worth of their million dollar pay packages of no public accountability.
HAVE ANYONE SEEN A JOB ADVERTISED IN THE MSM OR INTERNET FOR A SALARY OF $1 MILLION PLUS… I did like to put in my application… Wouldn’t the rest of you too??
The truth is that there is no job market and value for politicians ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD….are we being fooled????
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Wayang Party has become an Anti Immigrant Skinheads Party. Congratulations! Wondering when you will organize the thugs to start violent anti foreigner actions. WOOHHOO. I’ll join as the first in line!!
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The reasons why policies makers will give a lot of goodies to PRs to the detriment of the locals is because
1. PRs have a choice
2. Singaporeans under PAP, have NO choice.
How did (2) happen when we are supposedly a rich country and PRs who seek for a better life, implying that their own country is not good enough, ended up having more choices?
You know the answer better than I know.
If PAP is really good, Singaporeans should end up with a lot more options not the foreigners or PRs.
They are just extending the technique they used on pilots.
An eligible S’porean will always end up older than an eligible PR when they both opt to become a pilot for SIA or other airlines because PAP wants to force eligible s’poreans to take up air pilot jobs in the RSAF first.
This technique is used over and over again.
I wonder why nobody realise that.
If yes, why are we putting up with it.
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In politics, what they do is the same.
You either join the PAP or we “fry” you if you join the opposition.
Low (WP) commented on that on the difficulty of being an opposition.
CHiam (SP) also had similar experience.
I don’t know why we are blaming the opposition.
At least we have some (political) people talking sense in Singapore and offering real options.
The question is why are we not cherishing them when it takes very little effort to show support.
Their presence help us to get something during election time. Look at Aljunid.
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Without the thousands of Indian PRs at Ayer Rajah and other IT parks you think we can export IT products and earn revenue for the State?
Welcome PRs from wherever. They contribute towards the nation good. We shd only shun those who stretch out their hands for free meals.
Look at Indonesia & Malaysia and you’ll know why these countries’ currencies are going downhill; especially Malaysia’s, with all her mineral resources, and that her currency was once on par with us before we separated.
Remember, we have always been an immigrant society in the first place short of the Orang Laut natives who have since become obscured today.
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Instead of putting a limit on the opposition number, we should put a limit on the PAP politicians.
They should be restricted to have only 42 seats max. The winning party.
Then the pap people will have to use their brain to figure out who to put on the 42 seats. Anyway, they cannot even find the next PM in their current batch. So, there must be a lot shit in the current group.
Then they will select their people carefully.
and we get to find people in the opposition and can get rid of them easily.
The opposition will also have to work hard.
For those who die die must have PAP, well, you get a slim majority if they win.
And the number is not so big that they slag.
What do you all think?
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To get things to be approved, you need 2/3 of the 82 seats.
Meaning PAP if they win, they have to convince the oppostions (at least some of them of the proposal).
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Hi Skinheads,
If copying a few comments from ST Forum is anti-immigrant, then the Straits Times must be an anti-immigrant skinhead party since they are the ones who allowed these “anti-foreigner” letters to be published in the first place.
We sincerely implore you to email your concerns to Straits Times.
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to Sam :
our currency is defended by the CPF savings.
That’s why they included a clause for it in the CPF life.
In the event it got attacked.
That doesn’t mean it IS managed well.
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Hohoho.. PES C2L9 So no need carry gun and protect Ms Agarwal.
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War time I first to run away with family and friends. Defend ＳＧＰ for Agarwal and her cheebye kuan? ＴＡＮ KU ＫＵ！！！！ ｈｏｈｏｈｏｈｏｈｏ
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Hi Sam,
please note that Singapore currently has about 5 million people.
The size of singapore has increased only by a bit as compared to undeveloped Singapore in the time of orang lauts.
The island was pretty empty then with orang lauts and there were lots of legroom.
But now in this present day and time, there’s no legroom left.
Do you want to see Singapore with 10 million people in 600+ square kilometres of land?
And then see your job gone while being replaced by idiots who request salaries doing what you do for only $500 a month?
Yes Singapore WAS an immigrant society, not now.
Singapore has no space, no jobs and no money for everyone now.
Too many immigrants will lead to a downfall not only to Singapore but to any country, mark my words on this.
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William @ Wed, 19th Aug 2009 7:05 pm
And why should we listen to you a bootlicker’s masters dog? Tell me you don’t take mrt? Your barking is only understood to your masters.
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the Indian PR who started all this said “..I am proud to be a citizen of my country and have PR status in Singapore.”
The ST headline said “Thanks, being a PR is good enough”
If you are proud of being a citizen of your own country then go home – show your pride and patriotism to your motherland! Don’t come here expecting to parasite your PR status in Spore demanding benefits as indigenous citizens of this country.
It grates Sporeans’ ears to here being PR is good enough as there is no need to take up citizenship to enjoy many benefits and degrades the value of Spore citizenship who do no have the luxury of a backdoor retreat when things go badly wrong here.
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I second sicktothebones on Thu, 20th Aug 2009 6:33 am.
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[...] in a Strange Land – Toward the Green: Who is Dr. Cai Mingjie? – The Temasek Review: ‘PRs versus Citizens’ debate rages on in cyberspace – LIANAIN FILMS: The Human Trade – The Grand Moofti Speaks: Singapore: Make Mandarin Compulsory for [...]
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Conclusion: Join RC, and u will get all benefits.
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1. MM Lee is not wrong – We do need Foreign Talent, the qualifying issue is that they should elavate the avg comptency of all PR, Locals working and living in Singapore
2. PR and Citizens should have a differing Gap – there should be a difference. A limited Warranty (5 years for PR) is valid and certain basic incentives (CPF, Housing, Education and even Medical) should signify the difference b/w a Local and a PR.
3. It is OK to be proud of your own Citizenship and keep another PR
4. It is NOT OK to be rude and slap your hosts when inivited to their place for dinner.
I am currently a Singaporean (Born and Bred) but having a 4 years resident in HK (not even the *** PR yet). I pay my taxes every year to the HK government (which is a lot, btw) and I view it as a transaction b/w myself and the HK government. I work in HK, they give me Resident status. I have no access to public housing, medical or other Local benefits. I pay my taxes and they are happy ( I am too). I contribute to their economy (and they know this) and I will piss off back to Singapore when the time comes.
In HK, there are 4 cats – Locals, *** PR, Resident (R), Visitors. Even people from motherland, China are not offered priviledged residency. As Visitors, we apply to be Resident (via Work Permit) –> *** Permanent Resident (after 7 years). You will NEVER be a Local (with local SAR Passport) and only after you have *** PR, u can enjoy the local Medical or Housing benefits.
Really, it is that simple. In HK there is no debate like what we are doing now, everyone is clear who they are, what they can or cannot get (or do).
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絕處逢生 on Thu, 20th Aug 2009 1:19 pm …greeting..
Join RC and get benefits?? You mean Relaxation Centres??
There are all over this little red dot, MOST ARE NOT EXTREMELY REPUTABLE…the benefits could be
syphilis, aids, gonnorhea,clamydia etc etc…some could be fatal.
I would stay away from those moral health hazard.
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@Sam on Wed, 19th Aug 2009 11:16 pm
If the new migrants are here to contribute to Singapore, sure, I will lay out the red carpet myself
“Contribution” does not mean whining / writing to newspaper / etc, when Singaporeans ask for better distinction between citizen and PR
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@Sam on Wed, 19th Aug 2009 11:16 pm
If the new migrants are here to contribute to Singapore, sure, I will lay out the red carpet myself
“Contribution” does not mean whining / writing to newspaper / etc, when Singaporeans ask for better distinction between citizen and PR
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坡仔哥哥 on Thu, 20th Aug 2009 2:05 pm …greetings…
….. “We do need Foreign Talent, the qualifying issue is that they should elavate the avg comptency of all PR, Locals working and living in Singapore…..”
I offer a dissenting view. The sheer volume of intake without rigorous scrutiny leads to DILUTION of skill sets NOT elevating the avg competency.
You see evidence of that already – PRODUCTIVITY HAS GONE DOWN in rcent years and that is official statistics from our Government.
The same quality impact can be achieved in many ways by simply opening up our education sector to the best foreigners WITHOUT UNDLY EXPANDING OUR POPULATION BASE ACROSS THE SPECTRUM.
With massive dilution of mass influx, the “digestion” process can be long, ardous, unproductive and even threatening of complete failure as corporation struggles with integration and productivity management and new migrants struggling with settling as as THEY ARE NOT COMMITTED TO MAKE THIS PLACE A HOME. They don’t want to settle in but just settle their day to day survival and creaming off as much as they can ingeniously invent and discover of opportunities the loopholes in the system permits.
You get foreign scholars openly demanding more scholarship in cyberspace whilst they are keenly aware that locals are already deprived of limited educational resources. It is never enough for them. It is like an overcrowded zoo – each species fight for its food and survival in this little red dot.
The migration level of intake needs to scale down very quickly because the alleged economic benefit flow-on is spurious and the hidden political agenda of “vote buying” of would-be migrant votes using limited public resources is blindfold from public eyes. That is reprehensible of political accounting.
Singapore is for Singaporeans. This place is too crowded to take in permanent subs-standard new arrivals and potential new citizen just solely for cynical political agenda.
We need QUALITY INTAKE, NOT QUANTITY INTAKE GIVEN THE OBVIOUS PHYSICAL AND SOCIAL SPACE CONSTRAINTS which we cannot change significantly.
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坡仔哥哥 on Thu, 20th Aug 2009 2:05 pm …greetings
How many percent of those PR actually take up citizenship to share responsibility and risk outcome? If the Govcernment is honest, probably less than 10% judging by historical trend, so what happen, we will get millions of “passengers of convenience” scavenging of this soceity’s hard work and riches while we have to struggle feeding our young and funding the health care of our old in COMPETITION WITH THIS PARASITES.
Is that fair?
Your HK experience showed how smart they are. Even those from the “motherland” has NO residency rights in compactly dense living in Hong Kong because of physical and social space constraints.
HOW COME IS OUR COUNTRY SO STUPID BEYOND MEASUREMENT???
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The simplest solution to this issue is to vote this government out of office. Do you still have any faith in it after numerous disasters (e.g. Mas Selamat, foreign talent policy, losses at Temasek and GIC, Minibombs) with NO accountability? Do you still believe that a leopard can change its spots?
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坡仔哥哥 on Thu, 20th Aug 2009 2:05 pm…GREETINGS
As the late Deng Xiao Ping says, when you open windows, flies will fly in.
That is EXACTLY correct. As you are travelling and working (extensively) in China, you would also must know that counterfeit currency is a not-so-infrequent occurence. Many expats working knows China by this mantra “China is not what it really seems to be” – there are a lot of subtleties and shady part of society – fake documents and qualifications. If the vetting by immigration in Singapore is NOT rigorous AND PATIENT enough of backgound checks in a hurried frenzy to take in planeloads after planeloads of prospective new citizen, my REAL COMPELLING APPREHENSION IS THAT
a) not just unskilled migrants comes in as a msjority of new arrivals relative to the suitably-skilled ones
b) the skilled ones could be fake of qualifications and background experience
c) CRIMINAL ELEMENTS GETS BUNDLED IN together in the stampede to rush them in.
It is NO secret that in Australia, kidnapping was never a crime for decades until the arrival of mass influx of students – YES students revived “the kidnaping” crime industry in Australia. Prostitutions and organised crime in murders, social security rorts, fake driver licences racket takes hold now adding to existing pool of local criminals.
Mind you, Australia vetted its migration law and application very tightly.
We got only one Changi Prison, if crime rates shot up, where do we house all these criminals??? in your rental apartment or mine??
We want Singapore a safe place.
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And there are load of sham marriages to gain residency status and for money like a commercial enterprise until new rules came in to stop this SH@T.
But if they clear this hurdle. Something else happens. After they got passed the arranged sham marriage, there is the divorce proceedings to “legalise” the sham marriage break-up. It is a bit like laundrying chips of crime proceeds for clean crime untainted cash money in casino.
BOTH RORTING INEVITABLY PILED UP THE CASES BEFORE JUDICIAL ADJUDICATION – civil, and criminal law cases delayed.
JUSTICE DELAYED IS JUSTICE DENIED.
And then you get racket claiming insurance from organised controlled crash. Stealing cars and switching number plates. Renting and moving out without notice to avoid police surveillance trailing.
Do we want this kind of society for Singapore. The police and the court rooms got nothing better to do after we bring in planeloads after planeloads of undesirable elements????
I fear for Singapore.
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We can have more Singaporeans so we don’t need the PRs from China and other places.
One way is to to allow the working mothers have one or two children because they work and the government can then have their taxes. The money can then be used to help housewives with four or five children, even the single mothers. The money can be spent on tuition and food vouchers to help these poor children break out of the povery trap. Then more can go to the universities and not disadvantaged.
This is a good policy we the opposition think out first for the good of the country. All will surely benefit. Please vote wisely as Singaporeans.
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Fairplayplease – 你好！
I do not disagree – even though I say what I say, I feel that there are a lot of “on the ground” and implementational issues.
Our policy is correct, but the methods needs to be more rigourously discussed and debated. A lot of loop holes and backdoors are offered. Resulting in PRs from China working in coffeeshops and sleazy massage parlours.
The student visa issue is really one big gaping hole – so many china girls are flooding changi airport and education is not really on their minds….trust me.
summary – I support the policies from our government, but their implementation really sucks. At the rate of influx, the government will be hard pressed to prove their policies are correct and beneficial in the long run.
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@坡仔哥哥· on Fri, 21st Aug 2009 10:01 pm…Greetings..
It is a CRYING SHAME OF FAILURES in Government but MSM painted a beautiful landscape of big success and achievements of myopic one case success story to represent the immigration landscape of Singapore. If only ONE of our MPs in Parliament EXPLODED IN ANGER AND SHOUT AT THEIR STUPIDITY that is it ALL WRONG AND WE NEED TO TURN BACK – VERY URGENTLY.
Or if ICA do their research and LOOKED AT HOW FOREIGN COUNTRIES got trapped by immigration rorts and chicanery. How can you stop new PR or new citizens “divorced” and “remarry” on commercial terms cash unseen or transferred in China to a new arrival who wants legal residence and NOT even sleeping on the same bed? Then these circus continues as Australia found out and tighten the law to only 2 sponsorship in a lifetime and not spreading more than 10 years. Look at the law cases encountered in foreign refugee review tribunal, learnt from their experiences the skullduggery that is going on in immigration rorts so that we don’t wake up in the morning, the social landscape completely changed and you wondered.
Why is there so much “working” girls in Singapore but not as intensely abundant as in Sydney?? SOMETHING HAS GONE BADLY WRONG AT THE IMPLEMENTATION LEVEL. And if we don’t tightening the loopholes and scrutiny of “stringent” migration regulatory framework, it will only get WORSE AND WORSE.
A lot of the third grade universities and run of the mills colleges are “immigration factories” – money by tuition exchanged for residency who either finished their courses and seek PR or they simply disappeared from classes and moonblighting as criminals at night robbing locals or prostitution. What you read in MSM of “curry bashing” reported in Australian and Indian MSM is ONLY ONE SIDE OF THE STORY. People in Sydney tells me they are very angry because young non-citizen of South Asian ( a nice term to describe indian, Pakistani or Blangadeshi) extraction are robbing them as they return home after hours at night. I am sure some of these bashing stems from locals who had HAD ENOUGH of student-age population for foreign origin terrorising the streets of Sydney.
And now, in meeting with Indian Government officials, Mr. Evan, the Australian immigration Minister, made the following announcement IN INDIA of changes to its student visa route to future migration.
http://www.gettingdownunder.com/2009/07/24/australian-pr-slipping-away-from-international-students/
It is very INTERESTING TO NOTE that Evans made the announcement INSIDE INDIA, NOT IN AUSTRALIA AND AFTER MEETING WITH INDIAN GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS on the public furore in INDIA AND ITS MSM on the dramatised “curry bashing”. I am sure the Indian Government realised the truth and unstand Australia’s changed policy to close immigration visa to Indian students not genuinely there to study. Evan obviously want to assure India that it is NOT RETAILATION against India or its nationals in Australia as a result of media blow-up on “curry bashing”
I believe Evan knows the contextual texture that Australians too are totally pissed off with young students robbing and terrorising Australian street while living on immigration student visa. It is NOT a one-sided Aussies bashing foreigners, it is also foreigners robbing locals sometimes with menancing weapons.
ARE WE GOING TO LEARN SOMETHING FROM THIS???
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I am not sure the current situation in Canada. In the early 1990s, anyone approved for migration to Canada landed in Canada as a “Landed Immigrant” or simply PR status by lingo. Once set foot on Canadian soil, the PR cannot remain outside Canada for more than 1/2 of a calendar year continuously without forfeiture or expiry of his landed immigrant status. I believe this is still in force with regard to continuous absence from Canada. There was a similar case of a Singapore couple losing their PR status in Australia despite family “connection” of relative living there legally. There is unspoken commitment obligation of PRs at law and being away for so long demonstrated that lack of commitment it seems.
Australia also restrict PR access to welfare claims in initial period plus also those from family reunion migration has to fork out tens of thousands of security bond for any contigent medical costs.
The point is that EVERY COUNTRY CAN TAILOR ITS IMMIGRATION ACCORDING TO ITS SPECIFIC NEEDS since PRs holders are foreign citizen, we have NO intergovermental agreements or international law to govern state-migrant relationship.
SINGAPORE IS UNDER NOT UNDER ANY TREATY OR INTERNATIONAL LAW OBLIGATIONS TO PROVIDE FOR UNLIMITED ONE WAY BLANK CHEQUE FOR MIGRANTS TO STAY AS PASSENGERS OF CONVENIENCE secured ALSO by indefinite access of state support of medical, housing, educational scholarship (except on equal merit) etc. They could stay on of course but removed from all form of state support after 5 years.
Such a policy would encourage the serious one to stay on and those who really has no heart or commitment to this country to move on. Of course, they should be allowed to take back all their CPF contributions as it is their money. It is FAIR to both foreigners and Singaporeans I believe. Such also give them some impetus to decide seriously if this country is really for them to take roots.
Without some minimal “encouragement” to stay, any foreigner PRs would be happy to reap the harvest and having got the loot moved on their homeland or elsewhere – we end up suckers and stupid.
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Can someone starts a PETITION to make leeching/quitters PR and ‘new citizens’ do NS .They are always asking for equal treatment.
Maybe then we can say our PLEDGE of EQUALITY again—instead of non-sensical aspiration.
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Unless the petition is signed, sealed and delivered by 100,000 of shitizens, the gahment will just ignore it.
Remember the Lee Bee Wah fiasco? What happened?
Forgotten about it? Kewl, no issue here. Sinkaporeans are reknowned for their short memory.
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How can we demand “loyalty” from PRs, when some singaporeans ourselves do not even love our country.
Most people just want better conditions for themselves, its just a way of life, same goes for PR. We should not fault them, as long as they contribution to society is equal to the benefits they receive. This is where it is hard to draw a fine line, we need to be objective and use statistics as a basis instead of subjective methods like “personal” experiences.
For every bad thing about some PR, i’m sure there’s an equivalent counter part good thing about them, be it economic, social or political reasons.
For those firms who employ low cost foreign labour, they should be making supernormal profits, but is this the case? Some firms have no choice but to employ cheap labour to become competitive (construction, engineering industry).
Low wages is not the fault of PR, its a reflection of the drastic cost cutting measures a firm needs to be competitive and survive. It is the job of the GOVERNMENT to redistribute wealth. Therefore, not all problems attributed to PRs can be solved by dealing directly with PRs itself.
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“It is the job of the GOVERNMENT to redistribute wealth.”
Do their own wealth derived from the million $ pay get redistributed?
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Ironic on Tue, 25th Aug 2009 5:58 am …greetings…
How else could you present a false lop-sided argument? I am contesting your THOUGHTS. Government’s policy ANYWHERE in the world impacts on individual lives or are they blind of impact? How else is these impact not felt from personal experiences talked about in this forum?? Individual physical, social space and economic security are slaps of stainless steel blocks immune to the corrosive impacts of Government policies?
Reliance on Government statistics is the answer to fair, informed and maybe “educated” debate? Your THOUGHTS are caterpillar.
Let me quote you the simplest of example of statistics
MSM has this comment
IN THE past four years, more than 12,000 personae non gratae have failed to get into Singapore under new identities.
http://travel.asiaone.com/Travel/News/Story/A1Story20090824-162820.html
Wow!!!!! Great achievement!! I am NOT disputing the statistics of 12,000 refused entry at point of arrival in this example. What else does this statistics tells us????? ABSOLUTELY BUGGER ALL NOTHING. Now look at the tragic death of this young PRC poor soul, Huang Na – personal experience angle. Her natural father was reported by ICA as being caught and caned for illegal over-staying. He came in again under FALSE TRAVEL DOCUMENTATION AND LEFT ALSO UNDER FALSE DOCUMENTATION. ICA only disclosed of these immigration foul ups AFTER THE HUANG FAMILY brought back the remains of their endearing daughter and bringing home huge amount of public sympathy donations (note I am personally strongly in favour for this one) back to China.
The late Huang Na tragic end exposed, among other sad chapter, FRIGHTENING FLAWS in our ICA monitoring of those who in our records as persona non grata got back in. IT WAS DISCLOSED AFTER THE FACT OF ACTUAL OCCURENCE – that means that ICA did NOT know as IT HAPPENS. Huang Na’s episode hogged the limelight in big media glare and IN JUST ONE INSTANCE OF PUBLIC SYMPATHY AND AWARENESS WE ALSO GOT ONE INSTANCE OF REPEATED PASSPORT VIOLATION discovered after the fact. The ratio is ONE TO ONE of detection and FAILURE OF DETECTION.
When you open your migration door so wide, does the STATISTICS TELLS YOU HOW MANY GOT IN AND BROKE IMMIGRATION LAWS??? Of the 12,000 persona non-grata, how many actually got in via repeated attempts and different passports each time, IRONIC, do you know – just like the late Huang Na’s natural father???
The statistics 12,000 just say 12,000 ban from entry, how many of this 12,000 are now actually here and laughing at our high tech stupidity?? Do you know, IRONIC???
If you examine one case that inadvertently hit the public limelight and find it a can of worms, how many cans of worms are there that did NOT hit the limelight???
That aside, the bloggers here are not necessarily blaming the PRs – some are obviously contributing to our society and we should recognise and reward them. BUT MUST THIS BE AN INFLUX LIKE A TORRENT which the good one mixed with planeloads of extremely doubtful and criminal elements summarised in the 12,000 personal non-grata?? Do you need 12,000 criminals to come in and wrecked up this place, destroy our way of life by reference to oh..it is only 12,000 undesirables we DETECTED AND STOPPED, NOT the other NOT detected and not stopped???
It is a case of cancer. One bad cells and its spread. Someone imported cheap foreign labour and become competitive. This competitor has to follow the same. The result is wages forced down – not a bad thing in itself of competitiveness for the nation BUT WHAT ABOUT JOBLESS SINGAPOREANS WITH COSTS OF LIVING IMPOSSIBLE TO CUT DOWN OR SHIFT TO CHEAPER COUNTRIES TO LIVE??? and we IGNORE THEIR HURTFUL BLOGGINGS HERE AS ironic and irrational??
Come on, wake up caterpillar mind. Someone abroad brings home Singapore $50,000 our money after a few years here is a fortune in their country. People are paying snakeheads US$30,000 for an entry opportunity into USA, Australia and Europe for what?? They think they can make a lot more money after paying off the loan plus interest to snakeheads? How much a false marriage in Australia, the market value is A$30,000 at minimum and more as to what the traffic will bear.
IS THIS MARKET VALUE CAPTURED IN GOVERNMENT STATISTIC TO MEASURE THE RISKS OF IMMIGRATION FRAUD, JOB SALES ORGANISED FROM SINGAPORE TO DEPRIVE SINGAPOREAN JOB IN FAVOUR OF THEIR COUNTRYMEN OR WOMEN – CASH CHANGED HANDS OVERSEAS WITH NO PAPER TRACE RECORDS??
We don’t live their corrupt society, we don’t know that devious ways but we wonder why we lost like zombie in our own country – Goverment statistics means anything to singaporeans????????????????
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to ironic:
Low wage is the result of the removal of protection of s’porean workers.
it is an excuse to say that it is cost cutting.
if it really is, then our productivity should increase because we are producing at a lower cost while the selling price is the same.
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most s’poreans have reasons why they didn’t like s’pore at the moment.
to be more precise , s’pore is badly run.
and it is costing them a lot.
This is a separate issue for PR who have alternatives and didn’t have to take up onerous obligation.
IT is silly not to expect pr to be loyal. They have reasons why they are not. That is because it is better for them not to be.
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Ironic on Tue, 25th Aug 2009 5:58 am
After bringing in planeloads and planeloads of new “immigrants” silently to flood our midst, and then telling us that in your words….
…”For those firms who employ low cost foreign labour, they should be making supernormal profits, but is this the case? Some firms have no choice but to employ cheap labour to become competitive (construction, engineering industry)”.
IS THIS NOT IRONIC THAT BRINGING IN CHEAP LABOUR AND STILL UNECONOMIC COMPETITIVELY PROVED MY OFTEN SAID THESIS -
that is
OUR HUGE CASTLE MAKE-BELIEVE ECONOMIC POLICY MODEL OVER THE LAST 44 YEARS HAS FINALLY FAILED AND STARING RIGHT BEFORE OUR EYES??
The much acclaimed visonary leadership was good 40 years ago now looks INCREASINGLY BLIND-SIGHTED LEADERSHIP that is threatening our economic security of so many Singaporeans???
Be honest. If you run out of ideas, be fair, let someone else take the stage and sing our economic song and our children’s future.
Or IRONIC, should you stay in determinedly and sink this boat with Singaporeans and caterpillar-like minds in it so tragically????
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MM Lee request singaporean citizen to welcome them with open arms…why??..because he is concerns that PAP will have huge
loss support from the ground. He know thst these PR when become citizen, can be the replacement of the loss of votes by real unhappy citizens. These PR will have the voting rights when take up citizenship without performing 2.5 years of NS. Sad sad!!!..majullah $$$$ingapura lah!!!
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I think the post above made some interesting points, on a related side note I found a used version of Writing Winning Proposals: PR Cases which is directly related to this topic for less than the bookstores at http://www.belabooks.com/books/9780205461011.htm
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