Mah Bow Tan on complaints from buyers they cannot get a flat: “It is ridiculous!”
October 8th, 2009 | 
Author: From our Correspondent
National Development Minister Mah Bow Tan has lashed out at the rising number of complaints from Singaporeans, especially first-time home buyers that they are unable to get a flat after several attempts.
“Every time we get such emails we check – is it true? Why is it that after 12 times he still didn’t get a flat. It is ridiculous, surely something is wrong with the system,” said Mr Mah.
“So I have asked HDB to check and the sad part of it is – a lot of the times this is not entirely truthful. It’s not a matter of them not getting the flat, it’s a matter of getting it and not selecting it for one reason or the other.
“I would go further to say that if you (are) genuinely in (need of a flat) and you have not been able to succeed after three or four times, I’m prepared to look at it and find out what is going on.”
Mr Mah went on to assure Singaporeans that the supply of new flats under the BTO programme is more than adequate to meet the needs of younger couples.
However Mr Mah did not comment on the fact that in less than a week since the Sale of Balanced Flats is launched by HDB, 12,700 applications have been filed for only 2,132 available flats – about six times oversubscribed.
Neither did Mr Mah reply to the ERA report circulating around in cyberspace that 40 per cent of the buyers of resale flats are PRs.
Mr Mah also pin the blame on some applicants who did not book their flags:
“(There are) those who have a less urgent need or actually have a place to stay but are just trying their luck and are hoping that they get a good balloting number and a flat of their choice. In fact, many of those who reject say their preferred flat has been taken up. In such cases, we cannot cater for them.”
HDB’s advice to flat buyers is: plan ahead for the purchase and also know the trade-offs between wanting a flat in a mature or non-mature estate.
Despite record high prices for both new and resale flats, HDB has continued to insist that they are “affordable”. It now urges buyers to be “realistic” and exercise prudence, and buy a flat they can afford.
Perhaps HDB should first explain it has not increased the supply of flats in the face of an increasing population due to the relentless influx of foreigners over the last few years.
Is it realistic to expect home buyers to predict that the prices will shoot up so quickly in such a short span of time and “plan ahead” for their purchase?
Posted in Editorial
It is obviously the failure of the minister when the property price skyrocket and the buyer of the HDB flat have to slog for 30 years, praying for no retrenchment and pay cut, just to pay the housing loan. This is a another kind of slavery !!!!
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Maybe we can help Mah Bow Tan out,
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/lower-hdb-valuations-or-build-more-affordable-hdb-housing-for-singaporeans
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MBT is implying : You apply for a flat from HDB you just have to take up ANY flat that is available. You cannot choose, if you still insist on choosing, then you should get from the resale market. The choice of new flat is determined by HDB and not the buyer.
So how? Guess we need alternate voices in parliament to highlight a very real problem which these ostriches have always refused to acknowledge.
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Let’s not forget that this same idiot was the one being defeated by Chiam See Tong in the 1984 elections (an heavyweight endorsed personally by LKY), and PAP has no choice but to get him out to a GRC in subsequent election in order to get him into the parliament, so you can safely said that he came into parliament through the backdoor!
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I agree that Singaporeans are too pampered and very nitpciky about their choices, example for jobs.
As an applicant among the 12,700 others(and counting) I’m also still hoping for my dream home. But it is very insensitive that Mr Mah just throws the problem out of the door. Is it so wrong to hope for a dream home.
Public Housing, although still cheap compared to the other develop countries, still dents a very big hole in our pockets. If I am to pay for a 30 year loan on the housing that I can get, I better damn well get the unit I want, not just to buy any old unit available left. Its, to me, like feeding us scraps off the table.
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sick to the bones of all these rhetoric which is obviously not reflective of truth and ground reality. they will never acknowledge the problem and deny using statistics – why HDB houses prices are hitting the roof, why COV is getting 50k and above, why PRs are snapping up govt flats, why 12k rush for only 2k flats – at $10 per head non-refundable. this is a lottery jackpot for hdb.
so what is more ridiculous? no point saying anything.
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Contrast what MBT is saying/doing regarding spikes in housing prices to what the Reserve Bank of Australia is doing –
[Anthony Richards, head of economic analysis at the Reserve Bank of Australia, said last week that house prices may surge too fast, hurting low-income families seeking to buy or rent homes.
'The risk is that we might move toward undesirably strong growth in Australian housing prices,' Mr Richards said. 'We would not want to see very strong growth in housing prices - that would be unhelpful from a social perspective.' ]
- Bloomberg
What a world of difference.
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Mah Bow Tan: “ALL of you are wrong cause I am right; there is no fire cause I see (say) no fire (even though it’s full of smoke)”.
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His reply is funny.. I received an invitation for a BTO project in Punggol 2 months ago. 1 day before the appointment date, HDB send an SMS informing that my invitation is cancelled due to ethical quota reached.
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It is ridiculous that MBT can become a ministar
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As usual, it’s the fault of the citizens & never the minister’s fault.
The million-dollar ministers can do no wrong.
Instead of serving the citizens who (supposedly) put them in office, they talk down to the citizens with insensitive remarks.
This is very sad.
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MBT expect us to pay top dollars for his pigeon holes and take any that comes along? Will you do that for any purchases? Pay $3k to get any laptop?
We are expected to pay through our roofs for these flats and we are also expected to take flags in Yishun when the work place is in maybe Changi or take 2/3 floor flats?
Quit playing tai chi and pushing the blame to buyers.
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This is not buying toys. Most of the housese build by foreign labour.Has many defect, of course when buying or choosing a house U have to look out for many defect. There are a lot of compliant in Pungol Houses & Sengkang which is not publish.
MBT have U look into is matter.
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How would MBT or any other ministars understand our problems?
1) they don’t stay in HDB
2) their pay is so high, even the cost of the most expensive HDB flat is peanuts to them
3) they have solid job security, no FT to compete with
4) they are not accountable for the mistakes they made
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mah bow tan is so dumb. its the foreign talents that are driving up the prices and drying up the supply.
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Bottomline is a three-room public subsidized flat should not cost more than $200K. Why not HDB work out the expenses of a young couple with combined salaries of $4K per month – after deduction of housing loans, insurances, monthly allowances to both sets of parents and household expenses – what is there left? How to have more children???
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Where can you find MBT’s heart? Probably in his asshole or in the rubbish dump.
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it’s not cannot get flats.
he’s avoiding the question of ” Affordability ”
What is affordability?
300,000 for a 99 years 3 room flat?
40 years in loan?
work to my death?
congratulations mr mbt. u will not get my vote.
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Invitation to His Excellency – Minister Mah Bow Tan
Dear Minister
May we humbly invite you to stand for election in a single ward constituency in the next General Election so that you can prove yourself against those who mindlessly criticise you.
It will be a referendum of sort, to help to settle the arguement on your policies, popularity and job performance.
If you are not comfortable standing as a candidate in Potong Pasir, having lost to CST who is still popular there, you are free to choose any other single ward constituency.
We urge you to accept this invitation as a mean to prove your manhood and diginity.
We trust you will do well and will pray that you will not lose your deposit.
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I think part of what he says is true.. the guy trying 12 times.. there is something wrong.
what is wrong, is that if ppl don’t want those units.. then the flats MUST be cheaper. for those sought after units, then the prices should be high.
If ALL of them are expensive, then OF COURSE i’m going to get the better one. imagine facing the rubbish dump, and compared to having a nice view with a breeze. wats the price difference? i think there is a need make the price range wider.
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If u have to slog 30 years and have 30% of your income going to pay for the flat, shouldnt u have some say over what u are getting?
Another example of the high handed statements of our ruling elites.
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Given that one has to fork out more than 300k for a roof over the head, one naturally will be choosy!
What is the frigging point of paying out so much, have to endure a 30 year loan with no job security and not be able to choose a unit to one’s liking?!?
I wonder who is the one that is ridiculous!
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Since every1 is not happy, why not make it free market. Scrap HDBs all together.
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In the past, when a cost-based approached was used to price HDB flats, we did not have a serious problem with respect to families getting a queue number and then not selecting a flat (It existed, but at a much lower level)
The reason is simple. If a flat is priced substantially less that the market, families would take up the flat even if it was less than what was ideal to them, given that it would be much more cost effective to do so than purchase from the resale market. The resale of such a flat purchased directed from HDB would invariable result in a significant profit, regarding of whether or not it was a choice unit.
With the market-based pricing system, flats are ‘discounted’ from the present resale prices of neigbouring flats and sold. The discount is just marginally higher than if a resale flat was purchased and a housing grant was received. In such an instance, there is a real risk that flats purchased direct from HDB may result in a negative equity situation during a downturn, particularly if the unit has less than ideal attributes.
It should therefore come as no surprise that any reasonable person would only want to make a selection if the flat available meet their desired attributes, to protect them from possible financial loss on subsequent resale.
It makes no sense to settle for something less than ideal if the ‘discount’ offered by the HDB is insignificant after taking into consideration the housing grant that an family might be eligible for if a resale flat was purchased instead.
The reason why people are not flocking to purchase the resale flats and getting what they desire is the high COV that is prevalent in the resale market. In fact, many can afford to pay the prices demanded by sellers, even in today’s market, if the unit possesses all the right attributes. The high COV prevents them from doing so as Singaporeans are generally cash-poor, CPF rich.
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MBT is incompetent. In any other country he would have been sacked a long time ago. Wonder if he is related to the Lees like WKS who married LHL’s cousin.
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how_would_they_know on Thu, 8th Oct 2009 11:05 am
3) they have solid job security, no FT to compete with
——————————————————
Wrong. Elections are coming soon. Let us unite to make sure it is the PAPies who become unemployed. Vote opposition. Don’t just complain.
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MBT is drawing such a disgustngly high pay, and he is the elite of the elites (so called) under PAP’s meritocratic model, do you expect him to come so low to our level to understand our plights.
Common, be realistic, he is not paid (by taxpayers money) to solve our problem, he is paid to execute PAP’s policies, and that is to make more money under whatever circumstances!
Welcome to Singapore Incorporated!
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In Taiwan or Hong Kong, any minister who made such insensitive statements would be forced to resign through public protests…
Mah knows that Singaporeans does not have any rights nor capability to protest the same way the Hongkongers or Taiwanese do, so he can make whatever statements he wants…WHO CARES WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT!
I hope the opposition will keep reminding the public about such insensitive policies and statements made by MBT, and rally Singaporeans to exercise our rights in the next election to vote him out, just like the brave voters of Potong Pasir had done so in 1984!!
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On the purchase for new HDB flat esp. for first-timers, I tend to somehow agree the minister’s comment. Aside the argument on whether any REAL subsidy given through so-called “mkt subsidy” or housing grant, young couple should seriously consider their option if they are selected to choose the flat after first or fifth tried. Excuses like my choice unit don’t face the sea/park, far from MRT or I don’t like low floor unit etc can be compromised. And personally I find it stupid excuses. FYI, 4yrs ago I bought a resale HDB 4-rms flat after about 2-3 months of looking around (the price then also a little high) with limited budget. my wife and me have no preference floor level and with some luck we got a totally unfurnished flat (only 4 years) at bargain price then; the block is just next to NTUC FairPrice @ $200k (below valuation). My advice to young couple getting your first own home whether direct or resale, try to compromise (give & take).
Reasons like maybe you’ve strike a TOTO and decided to buy a private house, sudden departure of the other party, separation/divorce are understandable; if you are given a chance to select the new flat.
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Oh! I see, HDB is no more public housing authority! It’s a profitable org.
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HDB price is affordable?? – unless we don’t need to obtain loan.
If we have to, how can we say its affordable?
Also, It’s not a matter of whether the price is affordable, its price must be reasonable.
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Guys, we must now realise that MBT (and his kakis) is (are) using a completely different yardstick…
Where we see S$300k as “expensive” for a flat, they see S$300k as nothing cos they are so used to living in GCBs or high-end properties…
And if S$600k is a peanut, then the flat is just half a peanut woah…sigh
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“Affordability?”. Can HDB show us the statistic how many default cases have been dragged out of their home. Can power supply show us how many people have their utiltiies cut off? Not to mention the recent articles of Town council dragging residents to court for non-payment of Conservancy charge. If all these cost were to add up, how can MBT claim that servicing a flat is affordable?
As a matter of fact, everyone is renting HDB and paid our rent in advance for 30 years and still slapped with interest. Singapore housing is flawed as it creates another form of suffering for the citizens.
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Hello, lest we forget, Mah Bow Tan became a minister through the backdoor, he did not get any endorsement from the voters, as he was voted out in the 1984 elections against Chiam See Tong.
It was the highly despicable and unscrupulous tactics of PAP in introducing GRC that got him into parliament through the backdoor. As such, he does not feel obliged and will not have to answer to any Singapore voters, he only answers to PAP, his towkay.
So, be realistic as it is not his job to be bother with whether you can afford a flat or not, YOU SIMPLY HAVE NO CHOICE, get it? And of course, he is able to be so nonchalant because he knows PAP has control of everything you do, you read, you see, you eat, you like or dislike and even how you shit…so what if he abused it? What can Singaporeans do to him?
Vote him out next election…no problem, tangle a few carrots just during the election period and bingo…stupid Singaporeans will vote for him again!
So, who created this problem called Mah Bow Tan
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dennis ng, a guy running an independent housing loan consultancy, said in a tv show that the HDB price are too high using affordability calculations.
he said that calls to choose a flat in the outer part of singapore like woodlands to avoid overpaying is ridiculous because if flats go above price of 1 million, do you ask ppl to stay in JB instead.
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I agree with the analysis of LWL. The “market subsidy” offered by HDB is too pathetic. One is better off hunting for a good resale flat than just simply whack any low-floor, face-others’-kitchen unit that is not cheap too.
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to : Backdoor Mah
Mah Bow Tan did indeed came into parliament through the backdoor. But he has matured and become better through these years. He is now the front man of Tampines GRC.
If Chaim See Tong lead a team and challenge him in Tampines, Mah will likely win.
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MBT drawing millions of dollars teaching mere mortals what is affordability, that’s the ultimate joke.
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MBT, you better pray every day that you don’t get unemployed suddenly one day. Without your masters to protect you, I’m sure many people will get their chance to kick you.
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Fellow Singaporeans, after all these years everyone should be able to see plainly that these overpaid ministers don’t care a hoot about your welfare.
Read these posts from CNA forum:
75 year old lady selling tissue cries in pain …
http://forum.channelnewsasia.com/viewtopic.php?t=285891&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
http://forum.channelnewsasia.com/viewtopic.php?t=285891&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20
One forumer commented:
“this old lady is a “Hong Tou Jin”?
wow…..see what happens if u contribute too much to a society….
1) u will be forgotten
AND
2) u will be selling tissue and cry in pain…”
See: http://forum.channelnewsasia.com/viewtopic.php?t=285891&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=50
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From MBT’s perspective, a chicken coop is the same as another chicken coop and he does not understand why we chickens don’t docilely buy his expensive chicken coop and quietly lay eggs so he can have his breakfast.
For us, a HDB flat is home and lifelong liability. When you need to pay half a million or more on a 99-years rental flat, there are many considerations before you ink on the papers.
Location. Usually people want to live in a location that is closer to their work place or they parents or children. Baring that, preferably a location close to town or their main activities.
Flat type. Families with children will need more bedrooms. Even singles who can afford will prefer at least a 3-room flat which is only 2 bedrooms. HDB flat designs are hostile to having grandparents around. With the so called 5 room flat having at most 3 bedrooms, how is a household with 3 kids, 2 parents, a maid and 2 grandparents going to live together? One can say squeeze the kids and maids in one bedroom. What happen when the kids grew up? Are you going to put the adolescent son and daughter in the same bedroom with no privacy?
Neighbourhood. A good neighbourhood is also important. Are there facilities nearby? Eating houses, schools, town central, malls, child care services, medical services etc… e.g. Punggol was once unattractive due to its lack of neighbourhood services. Pasir Ris used to have very bad public transport system during its early days.
Floors. Some people like lower floors and some like higher floors. Usually Malays like first floor as it gives them the kampung experience. First floor is also convenient as you don’t have lift problems and you don’t have to travel up and down. High floor accord privacy and view and is very windy. At the highest floor, you don’t have problems with neighbour making noise in the above ceiling. Floor also determine the price of a flat.
Facing. To many who believe in Feng Shui, this is also important. Even for those who don’t believe in such things, mundane things like where the sun will shine in is important. It could mean either a hot morning or a hot afternoon. Or worse, no wind as all windows are “blocked” by other flats. The last thing you want to see after returning from a hard day’s work is to peer at your neighbour at the other block returning from a hard day’s work.
Age of flat. Some of these leftover flats are in fact very old. Who would want to buy their fire flat and it turns out to be a 20 years old flat with no modern design and facilities (e.g. lift stopping at every floor) and have to wait for LUP? Old people who have difficulty climbing stairs, young parents with small babies needing prams and even people who needs to carry heavy groceries up and down staircase makes no lift at their floor more than mere hassle. It lowers their quality of life tremendously. Those who have access to lift or are spry will never understand this problem.
Availability. Some flats may not be available at a time of convenience. Do you delay your wedding ceremony so you can wait for your flat to be completed? Not only that, you still have to worry about renovating your home. Some may want the flat due to expanded members of the family. Some may want the flat due to inability to live with in-laws or parents anymore. Can these people wait slowly for a flat to be built?
So you can see, there are many factors when search for what is essentially our home and the place we retreat to after a hard day’s work. It is our castle, our refuge.
To MBT, it is a chicken coop. A thing where his organisation can make money. To us, it is much much more than that.
And yet he tell us we are “fussy” and “choosy”.
Why not MBT sell off his posh house and live in a 3-room HDB flat randomly picked by voters and see if he likes it or not. I am sure the voters will choose the worst possible flat there is and see if he likes to stay in it.
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The minister has a poor understanding of the people. Only when he starts offering free HDB accommodation, can then he lamblast flat buyers for being choosy.
However, in this case HDB is selling the flats to the people as an essentially a profit-making venture. Given that the valuation is pegged to “affordability” instead of calculating the sale price based upon a mark-up on cost, as well as the policy of scaling back on the construction of new flats during periods of poor demand, I dare say that the HDB is making a healthy profit off providing housing for the country.
Given that is the case, I don’t believe that the HDB is qualified to complain that buyers are being ridiculous when they want to purchase a flat of their choice. They’re paying good money for something they are going to live in for a substantial period of time. Is it so unreasonable to want a good home to come back to at the end of the day?
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I wonder what will be his reaction if a PR complains.
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And MBT kept saying there are a lot of BTO available. What I want is a flat that I can move in 1~2 yrs time. And not 4 yrs for an BTO. Currently there are no flats available except the Balanced flats balloting problem. Sigh.
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Singaporeans are indeed picky.
I’m speaking from the point of view of someone who selected and bought my own flat, as well as am in the process of helping another relative find a rental one.
Somehow people think that there must be a perfect unit out there waiting for them to find. Perfect location, perfect ammenities for the perfect price. In the case of my relative, she wants close to bus and MRT, high floor, has built-in aircon and internet, and yet (according to the different agents consulted), the price she is willing to pay is below realistic market rate. And I seriously suspect that this is exactly how many HDB nitpickers are like. This isn’t heaven.
Despite all the complaints about not being able to find units, keys are still changing hands all the time. So why are some people still able to find units while others claim they can’t?
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if there are so many unhappy citizens, the system hdb uses is clearly lousy. Bunch of lazy civil servants earning millions but prefer to engage in verbal diarrhoea than do real work in revamping the system!
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As usual….ordinary Sinkaporeans are to be blamed. Can’t get jobs…it’s becos you are “choosy”. Can’t get flat…it’s becos you are “fussy”. Mas Selamat escaped….it’s becos ordinary Sinkaporeans are “complacent”.
Great leaders of the 21st century!!!
Our leaders should govern the world….then we would have ever lasting economic growth and unprecedented world peace. Quick, get our leaders to solve the middleeast problems.
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@Citiizen on Thu, 8th Oct 2009 3:25 pm
“I wonder what will be his reaction if a PR complains.”
Let me venture a guess.
He will jump to his feet & set aside a quota for PRs/FTs to purchase HDB flats.
Just like racial quota, this will ensure that Singaporeans will mingle with the PR/FTs & make the PRs/FTs feel welcome.
Doesn’t that sound like a million-dollar idea?
I should be paid million-dollar salary for coming out with such a splendid solution.
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as if the couple didn’t suffer if it chooses the flat 12 times.
Talk cock MAh.
He is one of the worst minister around.
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HDB is not designing flats to people’s expectation.
HE should be the one thinking.
There are always people trying their luck.
We don’t see this agravated problem with condo queues?
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@Danielseah76 on Thu, 8th Oct 2009 4:34 pm
Just because you have been lucky, do not rub salt into the wounds of those who has not been lucky as you.
There is nothing wrong with people wanting a perfect home especially when they have to pay half a million or more.
Open your eyes and see the sufferings of others. You are one of those who’s head is still in the sands thinking nothing is wrong.
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People want a perfect home. People want to win lottery too. Now lets talk about realistic expectations.
I don’t think my flat is perfect. Its a 20 yr old unit when I got it, it does not have a lift to the floor I’m on (its one of those old mansionette units with single level floors at the corners, and I got one of those odd floor corner units), and due to the design its not going to get a lift upgrade (I called HDB to check), nor near one of the mature estate hubs.
But I make do. No more upgrades means I dun have to worry about future hidden costs or enduring the upgrading period, and the corner unit means I get some privacy. And it was within my budget because these “disadvantages” lowered its value slightly compared to neighbouring units.
I never set out looking for a perfect home when I was on the hunt because such things do not exist (except in movie dialogue). I merely point out that some people will settle for nothing less than perfect units with perfect prices, and as a result, they most likely never find it. Even when they think they find one, they will find things wrong with them eventually.
In fact one of my acquaintences was also eyeing the unit I currently own when it was on the market. In the end they still lowered their expectations and settled for another unit when they could not find what they hoped to find one year after we got the current unit, and they wanted to move out on their own away from their parents.
Nothing in the world is perfect.
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If i could get a 5 room 20% above HDB’s cost (around SGD150K), i wouldnt mind even if its next to a rubbish collection point. But if i have to pay more than SGD300K, why should we not expect better quality?
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“So why are some people still able to find units while others claim they can’t?”
Lack of supply. And some people ARE willing to pay exorbitant prices for public housing as they need a place to stay.
“Nothing in the world is perfect.”
Oh dear, this is a similar propaganda line PAP has been trying to infuse into the public. It has been changed from “No one in the world is perfect” to EXCUSE Ho Ching’s losses.
“People want a perfect home.”
Unfortunately for almost every INDIVIDUAL on the planet Earth, the perfect home is a different deco, size etc. Mine is a greenhouse roof small bungalow for example.
I didnt know that perfect houses only exist in “movie dialogue” leh. How idiotic.
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To: lee sg on Thu, 8th Oct 2009 1:50 pm
Well, let not talk about leading a GRC team, which was simply a dirty tactic of PAP in consolidating and staying in power.
What if Mah Bow Tan goes back to Potong Pasir and fight it out with Chiam See Tong (after all, you said that he had mature and become better after all these years)? Let’s see whether he can exact revenge and get Chiam See Tong out of Potong Pasir. What do you think?
Personally, I think Mah Bow Tan have no guts in taking up the challenge, becuase he knows that he will never survive in a single constituency fight! There are just too many people who can’t wait to get rid of him!
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This horse is talking cock!
I have tried 7 times before I was successful in getting
my present flat. In that space of time, the price of
my flat have nearly doubled than when I made my first application.
Think of how much I could have saved if I had been
successful for the first ballot.
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To Omega Lee.
Wow thats a nice “perfect” home. And do you think others are willing/able to spend so much on that?
If there’s REALLY a lack of supply, I wonder what all those ads in the classifieds for HDB unit resales are. Must be fake units created by the propoganda division. Either that your your “supply” theory needs re-examining.
And yet there they are, and they keep changing too. So there ARE people buying.
Sure you think you might have a perfect unit. Now what if there’s another exact similar unit thats just 1 minute closer to the mall? THAT unit just became your new perfect unit. Or you see a friend’s unit and see that its exactly the same, just a little bigger. And thats what buyers think. There must be a cheaper/better/bigger/closer/newer unit.
The problem is not with supply. Its with demand. Us being of kiasu mentality doesn’t help.
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Isn’t this the guy who put the foreign worker dorm right in the middle of Serangoon Gardens and 2 minutes walk from a girls’ primary school?
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“If there’s REALLY a lack of supply, I wonder what all those ads in the classifieds for HDB unit resales are. ”
Which means they are not sold yet = overpriced.
a) people do need a place to stay; they cant stay on the street
b) there are always people with more money than sense
c) some particular PUBLIC flat has a nice and exact fit with some one’s need (closeness to parents, desired amenities etc.)
I tot someone say they dont want to fuel a housing bubble, so STFU.
“Wow thats a nice “perfect” home. And do you think others are willing/able to spend so much on that?”
Thats MY dream home, but many people would not like it and value it much lower than I would. For some others a dream house may be a 99 year lease public HDB flat. To each his own.
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I think our property will go up further if the government keep importing large number of foreigners, who may be your competitor to your dream home despite not serving NS. If the number is not large, the property may go up a little bit but this is not the case in Singapore.
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To danielseah76,
We are talking about new HDB here… not resale flats…
There is definitely a lack of new HDB flats… evident by the 12k application for the 2k new hdb flats launched.
The reason why there are so many sellers for HDB flats as you pointed out… is because many want to capitalise on the present high property price to cash in… but at the same time, the high price and high COV cause many people to be priced out… hence they look for new flats… and that is why demand is much higher than supply for new flats.
At the same time, those who just sold off their flats will be looking for new housing too… plus the many new PRs and new citizens that are flowing in… we are definitely facing a supply glut.
I do not think things are as simple as you make it out to be… many ads means nothing… especially “many” is just your own perception. How many percent does the ads constitute to the total number of HDB houses? Negligibe isnt it?
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Same old thing – in Hokkien: ai pi, ai chi, ai tua liap nee = love it to be really cheap, really fresh, and not to forget, big tits is a must too.
Try emigrating – with some luck, you may get to stay near the city centre or some glitsy happening places, instead of some faraway suburbs. Hopefully, you can find something affordable.
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All I can say is that is place is becoming a hopeless place where everything will be about $. I will be putting my vote against the PAPs, no matter how good they use to be. I cannot imagine my kids drawing a pay of 3k and having to pay a 3 room flat for 400k in the future. In the end, the PRs get to stay in all the prime estates while Singaporeans are relegated to the edge and BTO. Worse still, some PRs may even rip a profit from the sale of ever-increasing prices since they only need to hold 1 yr for resale HDB.
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MBT to Singaporeans:
Don’t complain and don’t be choosy. Just take whatever flat we give you, pay up and keep your mouth shut. If you are not happy, then go buy resale flat or private property, but don’t complain they are too expensive and you cannot afford them. We offer you something affordable, it’s your fault that you reject it, don’t blame everything on HDB or government. The government is never wrong. It’s all your fault for being choosy. Now shut up and move on!
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lee sg on Thu, 8th Oct 2009 1:50 pm
If Chaim See Tong lead a team and challenge him in Tampines, Mah will likely win.
================================================================
Not this time brudder. This time Mah and his fellow Ministers are going to lose big time. Just wait and see. Lose big time. LOL. Change is the only constant.
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Dr Vivian Balakrishnan:
How much do you want? Do you want three meals in a hawker centre, food court or restaurant?
What else do you expect from our multi-million dollar ministers? Sympathy? Concern? Understanding?
Don’t wait long long.
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PM Lee Hsien Long:
“Supposing you have a Parliament with 10, 15 or 20 opposition members out of 80, then instead of spending my time thinking what is the right policy for Singapore, I will spend all my time, I have to spend all my time thinking of what is the right way to fix them, what’s the best way to buy my own supporters over”.
Remember this gem as well.
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Shouldn’t we have a Filipino Development Assistance Council, a Burmese Development Assistance Council, a Vietnamese Development Assistance Council, an Indonesian Development Assistance Council…….
And what about our army????? Who are we supposed to be in conflict with??? Wouldn’t it be crazy to go war with say the Burmese when they have 100,000 men living here, or the Filipinos who probably have 200,000 men here or the ……….
I think it’s about time we abolish NS and cut our defence spending. Enough of this wayang.
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Well the property ponzi is well and alive. The baby boomers who got their flats in the 1970s saw huge growth till the mid 1990s. After the Asian economic crisis, when the property market tanked, the govt realised that the baby boomers were at risk of losing a significant proportion of their retirement savings since most of their CPF was ploughed into property.
Now that the baby boomers are approaching retirement and will likely downgrade to a smaller home to realise the gains on their principal place of residence, the govt, learning from the 1997 crisis, will pull all stops out to ensure that there is a floor on property prices.
The easiest way to do so is restrict supply – thus driving the cost of existing properties up – thereby protecting the retirement savings of the boomers.
For all of you screaming to Australia as your model, Australia had an enormous house price boom in the past 10 years, with income:house price ratios rising rapidly, shutting many potential first home owners out of the housing market.
Just one year ago, Aussie mortgages were about 9.5%. On an average 450,000 home loan, that works out to a whopping $4048 a month,or nearly $50,000 a year.
Although the average home loan in Australia has fallen to nearly 6% (and it will only go higher since the Reserve Bank of Australia is on a tightening spree now) it still works out to $3200 a month, or nearly $40,000 a year.
The average full time wage in Australia is about $56,000 (and many, many workers are not on full time wages and are paid by the hour) and after tax it is $48,000. Even a $300,000 mortgage at 6% over 20 years would cost you $27,000 a year. That’s nearly 60% of the post-tax income of an average full time worker in Australia.
Even then, the median household income in Australia before tax is $72,000. If after tax it is about $60,000 (or even less) then a $300,000 mortgage at 6% over 20 years would take out about half your post-tax income. And by Australian standards, 6% is considered low, since historically mortgage rates are 8-9% and have even seen 17% in the 1980s.
In Singapore our interest rates are far lower, which does lower the mortgage stress to some extent.
Median household income in Singapore is $65,000 and on a $300,000 flat on a 20-year loan at 2.6%, the repayments would be $19,248 a year. That’s 29% of median household income and remember you can pay off your mortgage in Singapore using CPF pre-tax.
The Australian govt, like the Singapore govt, has in the past 12 months pulled out all stops to prevent a house market crash in the country, dishing out generous home owner grants and importing a massive amount of foreigners into the country.
If you read this forum
http://forum.globalhousepricecrash.com/index.php?showforum=9
You will see many Australians complaining about the fact that they’re being priced out of the housing market, and that the baby boomers’ house prices would be protected by the govt at all costs.
For better or worse, our govt is doing the same thing to protect the retirement savings of the boomers. Sadly though, this is not sustainable in the long run in Singapore, Australia or anywhere else. As we have seen in the US and the UK, all bubbles burst eventually, no matter how much we try to prevent it from happening. Seriously, if house prices doubled every 7-10 years, the average HDB flat will cost a million bucks in no time!
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if you created a toilet bowl that is not useable and you show it to 1 couple and they evidently don’t want to buy it and then you show the same time to 9 other couples and only 5 of them buy it. Your rejection rate for the toilet bowl is 50% but it doesn’t change the fact that the toilet bowl is not useable.
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Yeah, HDB-less.
The 1 year restraining time for PR and 5 years for S’poreans over a small subsidy is ridiculous.
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To Omegalee
“Which means they are not sold yet = overpriced.”
And yet most still get sold. Resale units is more complicated, since sometimes its teh sellers who end up having unrealistic expectations. But push comes to shove, they eventually adjust the price to the market, and they sell it off in the end. Hooray to capitalism.
“a) people do need a place to stay; they cant stay on the street
b) there are always people with more money than sense
c) some particular PUBLIC flat has a nice and exact fit with some one’s need (closeness to parents, desired amenities etc.) ”
a) yet they still have roofs over their head waiting for the BTOs to be built….
b) And people with sense matching their money
c) which are probably already being lived in by someone else who value the exact same requirements.
“I tot someone say they dont want to fuel a housing bubble, so STFU.”
This is a public forum, everyone’s entitled to voicing their own opinions. If you don’t like reading you should avoid this site. What are you going to do, sue me? Maybe Lee&Lee can recommend you a lawyer :/
To Malboro
Yes we’re talking about new units. But the context is on the whole HDB demand supply. If everyone wants new units, and therefore think they are entitled to them, what happens to the other old units? You’re gonna buy them up so they dun go to waste I guess.
Its like a lot of people people wanting their kids to go to the RI. If you take the number of people who wanted their kid to get into RI but failed to do so, does that mean RI’s capacity is too small? What happens to the other schools then?
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Re : Unsustainable Bubble on Fri, 9th Oct 2009 2:41 am
A nice and balanced view about Australia.
However I personally doubt prices will crash anytime soon :
1) There is real demand for housing.
2) Tax deductions / Negative gearing
3) Incomes are very high. Average wage may be $56,000, but if you are white collar in the city you will earn much more than that.
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To danielseah76,
I suppose you are over emphasizing a small aspect and missing out on the big picture.
There are so many things that you choose to ignore in your argument, for eg,
1) The rate of increase in housing vs the rate of increase in population. If the latter is faster than the former, then there are bound to be a lack of supply (old and new hdb flats both included).
2) Market subsidy for new HDB flats. When new flats are priced at market subsidy and the new flats are not enough to meet the demand, the resale market price will shore… and in turn it will continue to shore up the resale market price… and the whole thing will repeat itself in a vicious cycle upwards. You think again… if not for the ultra high price of resale flat, do you think people will always prefer to get a new flat, whereby the time to wait is so long and the locations are so limited? If the resale mkt price is not so unrealitically high as it is now… I am sure many people will not beg around for a new flat. So, what has HDB done before the price shot up to this high? Did they do anything effective to control it other than wayanging and paying lip services?
Go check out the weblink below to see how much the resale market index has shot up.
http://www.hdb.gov.sg/fi10/fi10201p.nsf/WPDis/Buying%20A%20Resale%20FlatStatistics%20-%20Resale%20Price%20Index?OpenDocument
When price can shot up so drastically, do you think it is a seller’s market or a buyer’s market? Do you think there is an over demand or over supply of hdb flats?
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minor correction to my post above on the sentence
“and in turn it will continue to shore up the resale market price”
Should be “shore up new hdb prices”
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@Danielseah76 on Thu, 8th Oct 2009 6:12 pm
So your standard for housing is lower, good for you. But do you have an old folk living with you who has problem climbing stairs everyday?
Do you have babies or toddlers where you have to carry the prams up and down staircases?
Everyone has different needs and to dismiss those needs and saying people are fussy shows a lack of empathy for them.
Some people may have young children where they need a unit near childcare centres.
Some may be newly weds who just want a quiet and isolated units without neighbours staring into their unit.
And with the prices of so many units at 300K to 400K and including interest, people are paying half a million or so, why can’t they expect a decent house.
Let’s not talk about the “perfect” house. No HDB unit can be considered “perfect”. Since none of them are bungalows or townhouses near beachfront.
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To : Backdoor Mah
If Mah stand for the seat in Potong Pasir, will Chiam See Tong complain that a Minister is trying to squeeze him out of his parliament seat?
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To :btan
Your quote:
“There is nothing wrong with people wanting a perfect home especially when they have to pay half a million or more.”
Do u want the PERFECT woman to be your wife? If u cannot find her, then u may not marry and thus u do not need a flat.
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HDB new flat price is very ridiculous if MBT claimed that the flat is subsidized !!!!! Only in Singapore that the government is generating revenue when subsidizing the citizen. This is done through ridiculous pricing and then give a discount that is far higher than the actual cost. The fake subsidy is what the government is claiming “Take care of the citizen”!!!!
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Please carefully NOTE the ‘Caps” and non-Caps” (Upper & Lower case letters… as THEY ARE intended AS PUNTS… Et Cetera… For “EFFECTS”… SO…
Dear “Sink-A-Poor”… Multi-MILLION DollarS MINIsters… HAVE MULTI-MILLION ‘DoeLLARs’ miniSTERS reasons… that DON’T MAEN a thing or anything…
As they ARE PAID SO MUCH… TO SERVE AS PaPPISSSSSeeeeeeSSSSSS
… GLIB..bed tongues” Of little significance For YOU AND ME… EXCEPT For The MASTERs WHO PAY their Astronomically HIGH PAy-PacK(C)AGES (sic)!!!… With PAPiss BOSSES… PREDESTINATION… and THUS In PREDETERMInation… For this “nation”… which their ‘EMPEROR’ HAS DECIDED LoooooooooooooNG LooooooooooooooooooNG LoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooNG FiTY Years AGO… IS A GIVEN… AND BELONGS TO THEM!!! PERIOD!!!…
As THE PROOF OF THIS… IS WHAT you have shared about MAh BoW tAn From 1984 after LOSING TO MOST AFFABLE MR. Chiam SEE TONG… and FINALLY… “GGOT INTO Parliament BY IT’S BACKDOOR” as Dear “Backdoor Mah… on Thu, 8th Oct 2009 6:35 pm” SAID!!!…
“Sink-A-Poor on Thu, 8th Oct 2009 10:43 am
As usual, it’s the fault of the citizens & never the minister’s fault.
The million-dollar ministers can do no wrong.
Instead of serving the citizens who (supposedly) put them in office, they talk down to the citizens with insensitive remarks.
This is very sad.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
And to…
“jolly on Thu, 8th Oct 2009 11:06 am
mah bow tan is so dumb. its the foreign talents that are driving up the prices and drying up the supply.”…
mR. mAH BOw TAN… ISN’T AT ALL… “SO DUMB” as you said…
In Fact… He IS SO VERY VERY VERY… “sNeaKy SmART”… to have goteen INTO Parliament by the BACKalley door way!!!…
And DO CHECK OUT… “WHO” he really IS… and how he IS connected to the FAMIlee!!!…
And Last BUT NOT The Least… CONGRATS to ONE & ALL WHO SPOKE UP COGENTLY AND COHERENTLY ABOUT mAH’s AND PAPisss PISS ON US LEGITIMATE ‘EQUAL” CITIZENS OF SINGAPORE… WHOM they URGE MOST “Passionately”… “To COUNT ON ME… Singapore… TO DO MY BEST AND MORE…!!!…
AS they ARE MOST CERTAINLY… DOING THEIR BEST TO DO their BESt FOR themselves… and US in???…
Your reactions ARE AS GOOD AS mine AS The Saying GOES!!!
“WE No TALENT”???… And ONLy those paid Astronomically HIGH “HAVE TaLENT”???…
BUT FOR WHAT EH???
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we’re less than animals in their eyes? We have no right to choose where or how we stay and eat.
We should be grateful just to have a roof over our heads and food in our belly.
Is this all the aspirations of a developed society we have all helped to build?
It feels like we are little more than cattle in a farm to our ruling elites.
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What do you expect from ministers who are paid multi million dollar salaries? All of them probably never stayed in HDB flats or taken public transport before so can they imagine how life is like for ordinary Singaporeans who earn only $3k or less a month? All they do is talk but no action!
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MBT is a useless moron. he does not deserve to be a minister and earn the millions in salary. pls all singaporeans wake up and get this guy out in the next elections. whichver GRC he is standing in we should vote for the opposition.
also won gan seng another useless minister .
can let mas selamat escape and act blur. he should resign for security lapse on his watch. that is what a honest CEO will do if he failed in his job. if not pay millions for what ?? just goes to show the our beloved gahmen is screwed up.
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lee sg
Your quote
If Mah stand for the seat in Potong Pasir, will Chiam See Tong complain that a Minister is trying to squeeze him out of his parliament seat?
The sure-right answer is
Singaporeans will be very pleased indeed. HE WILL BE VOTED OUT and we will be all laughing. If Chiam is too good, try Hougang – the joyous guys and gals there will “party” the election results when it is announced – until the next election.
Potong Pasir and Hougang has got voters who got balls but can’t be seduced.
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i wonder… if we do get free HDB flats… who will actually pay for it? the taxpayers? why would the taxpayers want to pay for the housing of another person who may or may not pay tax?
anyone knows how the prices of housing in Singapore compares to the prices in any other metropolis, for example… New York?
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