YPAP member resorts to smearing critic’s character to silence him on Facebook
December 13th, 2009 | 
Author: Written by Our Correspondent
Unable to defeat a dogged critic in a debate, a YPAP member had resorted to posting personal details about him on the YPAP Facebook in a desperate bid to discredit him and smear his moral character, reminiscent of the dirty underhanded tactic commonly employed by the PAP to demolish its opponents in past elections.
Mr Alex Tan had been posting his outspoken views on the YPAP Facebook against policies like national service (NS) and the Central Provident Fund for the past six months before being barred from posting lately.
YPAP administrators accused Mr Tan of indulging in name-calling and vulgarities without substantiating their claims while Mr Tan counter-accused them of starting the flame war first.
A YPAP member had revealed on the YPAP Facebook Mr Tan had been put in detention barracks for five days last year, for writing a blog post listing the number of people who have died while serving NS since 2000.
Mr Tan felt they (YPAP) should handle him by the content of his posts, and not his person. YPAP has since deleted the majorityof Mr Tan’s posts.
He should not be surprised as the PAP is adept at resorting to character assassination to cripple their opponents as epitomized by their “fixing” of J.B. Jeyaretnam, Francis Seow, Jufrie Mahmood, Tang Liang Hong, Dr Chee Soon Juan and James Gomez in the past.
As expected, PAP MP and Vice-Chairman of YPAP Mr Zaqy Mohamad jumped to the defence of YPAP in Sunday Times today:
“We would not ban someone just for making anti-establishment remarks. It must have been because those remarks were harsh and malicious,” he noted.
It is obvious that Mr Tan must have ruffled the feathers of the YPAP with his hard-hitting diatribes as it is the first time the YPAP has resorted to banning a netizen from posting on its Facebook.
The rising tide of anti-establishment sentiment in cyberspace continues to impede the YPAP’s efforts to reach out to the online community.
A YPAP member and new citizen from India Mr Fredric Fanthome who blogged on the P65 blog, was rapped lately for his callous comments on the opposition’s reaction to the proposed “cooling-off” day.
Mr Fanthome had criticized the Singapore opposition for its “knee-jerk” response and exhorted it to provide “constructive criticisms” to policies instead of “opposing for the sake of opposing”.
Despite investing large amount of money, manpower and resources into the new media such as revamping the PAP and YPAP websites, the PAP has yet to make its presence felt in Singapore blogosphere which is dominated by independent players who are often critical of the establishment.
Copyright © The Temasek Review, 2009
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The Straits Times
Dec 11, 2009
Has PAP rule led to apathy?
Youth Wing debates issue with great fervour
By Zakir Hussain & Rachel Chang
PROJECT engineer Alex Tan did not mince his words as he blamed the ruling People’s Action Party for the apathy of Singapore’s youth.
He pointed his finger especially at the PAP’s dominance and the lack of press freedom. The 22-year-old also said the PAP may feel it is helping the people but the people feel disadvantaged by its policies, from foreign talent to national service.
His stark statements surprised, not for their content but for where they were made. Mr Tan was speaking last night at a dialogue organised by the Young PAP, and which was attended by 150 youths and two PAP MPs.
They were first-term Mr Sam Tan, who is six months into his job as Parliamentary Secretary in two ministries – Trade and Industry, and Information, Communications and the Arts – and Mr Christopher de Souza, vice-chairman of the Youth Wing.
Mr Alex Tan was the most hard-hitting from among a dozen young people who spoke during the two-hour dialogue titled, 2010: How Can Our Youths Serve Singapore?
The issues raised by the others include ways to get more youths to be volunteers, how the political system discourages alternative voices and puts opposition parties at a disadvantage, and that schools discourage political discussion.
The Straits Times
I think he is being punished for being outspoken and for asking difficult questions. Our MPs must have been unhappy with him.
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I believe Mr Alex Tan would make a good opposition member in parliament. The opposition would certainly benefit from having people like him.
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How can National Service be exploited and being used to discredit its critic. How can such materials being obtained in the first place and so freely being used against conscripted person outside of the army?
Its unprofessional, and unethical.
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Well, its must be a concern for miw that the people who are coming out and aggressively questioning these policies which they are unhappy with, are getting younger and younger.
Any documentation of the exchange? Nothing beats all the spin like complete facts.
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correct me if im wrong. but isnt revealing someone’s ns record a breach of ns rules and a chargeable offence at that. anything under 7days of DB is never brought over to the public domain. 7days of DB or more is automatically equivalent to a prison record in civiliian life so anything in that category is public domain but 5days is not. i dont know if the rules have changed but when i was in ns i handles these matters so i know what im talking abt.
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Are you sure SAF placed him in detention for five days because he listed facts?
Hahahahahahahahahahaha…
If that’s true, a war is imminent. Hahahahahahahahahahaha…
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha…
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha…
Anyway, NOT YP members are the same. This must be understood.
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“We would not ban someone just for making anti-establishment remarks. It must have been because those remarks were harsh and malicious”
Wow, such threatics. Wo is entitled to speak for the “establishment”? Mr. Alex Tan not part of any estiblishment or establishments?
I CANNOT FIGURE OUT how PAP MP and Vice-Chairman of YPAP Mr Zaqy Mohamad came to the conclusion that the remarks of Alex Tan is allgedly malicious. It could well be provocative of serious discourse but where is the maliciousness unless it exists in Alex Tan’s mind. I don’t own Mr. Tan’s mind, I can’t figure that out.
So did Zagy Mohamad owns Mr. Alex Tan’s mind when those posts were made by him???
In any case, censoring someone’s post offends the principle of freedom of speech in democracy – except the mafia democracy of PRC, North Korea, Cuba or Iran.
Have we advanced to that stage of degeneration of free speech? Or are we there already.
The citizenry must be concerned in observing the quasi-terrorists treatment of “tea-and-biscuits protestors” on our street.
It is now progressing into cyberspace of privilege participation.
Perhaps, the guidelines of each pesky blogging sites should state explicitly – NO OFFENDING BLOGGING ALLOWED HERE, ONLY THE POLITICAL CORRECT AND WE RESERVE THE RIGHT TO DEFINE ALL TRUTHS OF THE WORD ‘OFFENDING” ?
And one more, we have one rule which changes all rules – our rules apply to all others and sundry except us.
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Elfred on Sun, 13th Dec 2009 11:10 am
Ghosts don’t appear. And when they appear anywhere, do they look the same??
This must be understood too!!
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All youngsters must come forward like Alex. They have to speak clearly and loudly becos they are the future leaders of Singapore.
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They can’t swallow this “ALEX” bitter pill. So, they spit it out.
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A crack in the Berlin Wall. A collapse is imminence.
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Asiaonline forum: by John 14/12/09
Bank’s fault but not a word of apology
I TRIED to withdraw $200 in cash from a DBS Bank ATM in Pasir Ris on Nov 13. No cash was dispensed from the machine but $200 was deducted from my account.
I quickly called customer service and was told the bank would check and call me within three working days. No one called, so I rang up customer service again on Nov 19 and was told the matter was still under investigation and the bank would need seven to 10 working days.
On Nov 24, I received a call telling me the bank had sent me a letter and asking me to refer to it. The letter was from DBS Bank’s eChannel Servicing and signed by a Mr See Kim Seng. He said there was no discrepancy and $200 had been withdrawn from my account and I had received the cash.
Click here to find out more!
I immediately called the bank and demanded to see the recordings of the closed-circuit TV (CCTV) cameras. I waited and waited but there was no follow-up from DBS and so I called again on Dec 1. I was told the bank was following up on the matter.
Finally, on Dec 3, I received a call from Mr See who was not at all apologetic. His first question was: ‘The machine is faulty meh?’
I was furious and asked if he had actually seen the CCTV camera recordings and what was the outcome. He replied that it was the bank’s fault and $200 would be deposited into my account by 5pm. But there was not a word of apology.
What kind of attitude is this? Is $200 just peanuts to Mr See? Is that why he did not take the trouble to investigate before sending the first letter?
I wonder how many such letters have been sent to DBS customers to settle and close a case quickly without carrying out a proper investigation.
So nothing new if the silencing in facebook is happening.
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Who are we actually protecting?
Singapore must follow Taiwan – End Conscription:
http://www.chinapost.com.tw/editorial/taiwan-issues/2009/03/13/199883/End-of.htm
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For those people who quick to judge Alex Tan about revealing “private death” information, please wake out and find out the truth for yourself.
What Alex has blogged about is public information, and all he do is to consolidate information from sites and ShittyTimes into one post, and because of that he is sent to DB ? It show the abuse of power by the Leegime. How can someone be sent to jail over public accessible information ? Uniquely Singapore !
Read about this
http://utopia8787.blogspot.com/2009/10/my-5-days-db-sentence.html
As I said before, he created a post from various public site (not ISD, or any kangaroo sites), and known death that make publicly in ShittyTimes. Just google on those name, and you find it mention publicly.
this is the post that send Alex to DB. Judge for yourself if you still have brain whether Alex deserve to be sent to DB just for his consolidated post.
http://singaporeelection.blogspot.com/2008/06/why-would-you-send-your-sons-to-ns.html
Only in Singapore can kangaroo sent you to jail for the truth and public info. That show how desperate is the kangaroo. Those pathetic clown really give Kangaroo a bad name for Australia.
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imsure (1044am) has brought up an excellent point.
Is it legal and ok for a YPAP member to have access to Alex Tan’s NS records, and to publicize it in the public domain?
People knowledgeable in the law should step forward and advise Alex in pursuing the matter.
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Politically, PAP and its dogs will benefit – if Alex continue to be a blundering hothead.
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I believe and hope that Alex Tan will stay out of political parties because the criticisms and comments he makes can be much more direct, effective and convincing if he remains an average member of the public.
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There is NO “freedom of information” law in Singapore, how did anyone managed to access Mr. Tan national service records and published it?
Or is there some unlegislated “freedom of information” law practiced in some circle of power-assisted access to protected information CORRUPTLY?
Mr. Tan should make a formal complaint to the Attorney-General or the CPIB requesting a formal investigation and see what the fair result will be.
DEMOCRACY IS A TWO-WAY TRAFFIC OR IS IT NOT?
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@Fearful Of Ghost:
Hahahahaha… Not all are ghosts in YP, I wasn’t that unreasonable. But I do know… I mean, aware of some bosses’ attitude or those attitude of those who think that they are bosses.
Which was why PM Lee and the MM was caught by surprised… at fixings and such. I mean, not everyone is like Elfred… I focus on your issues, and if you don’t make sense, I am not one of those who’d fix you, UNLESS you start the game.
All these… fixings… very smart. Achieve nothing, and all the big problems… then scandals fly, and… Anyway, I have happily retired from PAP.
I can only hope all those new YP and old YP folks to exercise some grace. What is right will be right, and what’s wrong… when you do it, sometimes it cannot be reversed.
Remember when PM and group of ministers encouraged the beauty of blogging, even ex-comrade Vivian went on radio to spread the words… Then Mr Philip went on a threat on a blogger, then plenty of news trying to beautify him… What a damage is done, and it’s not just “Oh, PM dosn’t like it, so a -1 be tallied with +1 =0.”.
I have my fair share of such problems with some ‘over-zealous’ ‘bosses’ before. Hahahahahahahahaha…
Hahahahahahahahahaha…
But you guys must understand, not all YPs are like that, not all oppositions are Chiam See Tong or Dr Chee. Don’t say PAP members are all ghosts.
If everyone keeps quiet, Singapore would be finished. If people give you trouble for being noisy, that’s because they have no answers for you. So either you ask something you know have an answer, or you’d always expect bashings.
But put it this way, many questions which beg bashings if left unanswered would be bashings in themselves… So… Either way, ‘die die must do’ or ‘die die don’t do’.
Hahahahahaha…
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@ #Exposer
“http://singaporeelection.blogspot.com/2008/06/why-would-you-send-your-sons-to-ns.html”
There was ANOTHER death at sea after death of SGT Hu who died at the hands of his commando trainers……..one SGT died by drowning when he was undergoing training ………..he was required to carry a ladder to board a simulated ship which was hijacked by terrorist, in full army uniform with boots in the high seas.
Alex Tan. if you are reading, you have my support……..it was an abuse of power and injustice by the SAF in sending you to DB for what you blogged.
Even though there were supposed to be other trainers and trainees, nobody saw him in difficulty
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Elfred on Sun, 13th Dec 2009 2:17 pm
“Not all are ghosts in YP” (quoting you, Elfred)
I would NOT know if ghosts are exclusively residing there. But you confessed – impliedly at least that there are some – not all??
You could be said “to be there and done that” but now retired from the PAP, so you would be privvy to known ghostly facts which I would not as an outsider. But you are not unreasonable of thoughts in that regard at least.
As an outside party, very unfortunately, I see a GHOSTLY CONSISTENT PATTERN OF BEHAVIOUR from the authorities. There is confrontational censorship directed at Benjamin Bland, Mr Brown and now Mr. Tan lifting the very “ordinary” of intelligent voices to stardom martyr-like status in cyberspace by what someone aptly described as “quasi-terrorists treatment of tea-and-biscuits” dissenting voices.
That would NOT sit well with your proposition or aspiration at least that..”What is right will be right, and what’s wrong… when you do it, sometimes it cannot be reversed…” This is very sad indeed of staring of continuiing affiction to cancerous deletion of serious feedback when wrong could be right but NOW SEEMS NEVER INTENDED TO BE.
It is also a big slap on their own face of seeking dialogue with citizenry – a pretension that is barely concealed below the surface that “dialogue” is going to be a one-way “SHUT UP AND SIT DOWN TALK DOWN to citizens and all sundry living in your words beautifully depicted words – a God’s gift on a barren rock. OR ARE THEY PERMANENTLY TALKING TO THEMSELVES!!!
It has come to my mind, whether you as a professed reasonable gentleman and/or any other ghosts inhabiting the freedom of speech domain of this little red dot agrees or not, that there is an apparent tightly interlocking link between the authorities and its preferred media channel that it is IMPOSSIBLE TO TELL WHEN A SPIN AND OR CENSORSHIP START AND END FROM THE POWER IN COMMAND OR THE GHOSTLY WRITERS IN OBDEDIENCE OF NO THOUGHTS.
Mr. Elfred, WHERE DO YOU THINK THE DIALOGUE, IF IT EVER COMES, STARTS??? FROM CENSORSHIP STARTING POINT OR FROM SPINNING TOPS?
I am bewildered and continues to be bewildered. Maybe I should consult fortune teller on the nearby street for a speculative answer. It is cheap though…only $2 per conversational session though I am always skeptical of reliability of all fortune tellers.
You will never know unless you try, right????
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They went so low just to hit him below the belt.
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I was watching Valkyrie last night and it struck me how much Alex Tan reminds of me Col Stauffenberg, IMHO.
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To alex,
If YPAP don’t welcome you, then forget it, afterall there are plenty of places to voice out, e.g. TR. anyway,the readership of YPAP is not high,no point boosting their readership.
keep calm,since you have done nothing wrong,don’t fall into their trap of making you seem unreasonable.
as for your unfortunate db, don’t bear grudge since we know every fighter for justice has been harassed e.g.ISA victims
instead focus your energy on helping the opposition make their case.
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so what if this guy was put in DB?
Especially when his comments were valid.
YPAP got nothing to response and had to spend a lot of time digging into this guy’s past.
A clear demonstration that the pigs and their piglets have no ideas.
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actually the pigs’ damage is minimal here since nobody reads their blog.
Lesson:
want to post, post at TR.
More people read TR than the other site.
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How can the YPAP member legally disclose a person’s information like this?
How did he get the info ?
Someone should investigate how he was able to access another person’s info and if its legal to do so.
If legal, can the one smeared counter with the same and also be legal? Privacy laws?
I ave no clues at all leh. how?
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i think Alex Tan should be happy that PAP let the whole world know that he was in DB for talking about a difficult issue. not only does it not take away any credibility, i think the fact that Alex Tan suffered for daring to speak up gives him more moral authority to speak up. i think YPAP erred tremendously in this instance.
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imsure,
I have to correct you since you are wrong. There is no rule whastsoever about more then 7 days DB being a prison record. It is but a myth created by BMT SGTs to scare recruits. If you are charged with a registrable offence, as listed in the registration of criminals act, then you have a criminal record, which is accessible. It is the offence, and not the sentence that matters. Generally, most of the offences under the SAF Act are not registrable offences, unless you are charged under Sec 112 of the SAF Act, which allows for them to charge you for civil offences, some of which may be registrable offences.
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I would NOT know if ghosts are exclusively residing there. But you confessed – impliedly at least that there are some – not all??
Frankly, it’s a confession for almost every large organisation. There will those good ones, there will be those problematic ones. It all depends on who is defining what’s good and what’s bad.
You could be said “to be there and done that” but now retired from the PAP, so you would be privvy to known ghostly facts which I would not as an outsider. But you are not unreasonable of thoughts in that regard at least.
Hahahahahahahahahaha… That depends on how you see ‘facts’. Why not you join YP… then you’d be an ‘insider’. Hahahahahahahahaha… Ti Lik was a YP member, what does he know?
As an outside party, very unfortunately, I see a GHOSTLY CONSISTENT PATTERN OF BEHAVIOUR from the authorities. There is confrontational censorship directed at Benjamin Bland, Mr Brown and now Mr. Tan lifting the very “ordinary” of intelligent voices to stardom martyr-like status in cyberspace by what someone aptly described as “quasi-terrorists treatment of tea-and-biscuits” dissenting voices.
Coincidentally, those are the people the party promoted whom you see. But there are also others who didn’t fix anyone. Of course, I am aware of certain ‘behaviour’ you are driving at. Even I myself have to ‘experience’ certain… behavior’ when I was YP. As for whether those voices are intelligent or not, that really depends on how you see it. But politically speaking, I don’t see how intelligent these people are. I mean… right, Mr Brown thinks there is a problem with ex-comrade Yaacob, so on the other hand, if Mr Brown were to be Mr Yaacob, do you think he can do a perfect job?
Say, many of you suggested minimum wage and foreign labor moves… Actually most such talks are pretty empty. They think they are right, hence they think they are intelligent. I am not saying the PAP guys are better. I am just illustrating
That would NOT sit well with your proposition or aspiration at least that..”What is right will be right, and what’s wrong… when you do it, sometimes it cannot be reversed…” This is very sad indeed of staring of continuiing affiction to cancerous deletion of serious feedback when wrong could be right but NOW SEEMS NEVER INTENDED TO BE.
Emm… You must get this very clear, that I am I, they are they. I am not the one deleting your comments. Ask Panter92, he talked rubbish again and again, and how many comments of his in my blog did I censored?
You must understand PAP is a very big organisation, even among ministers, as PM mentioned, you can’t have the same views hence reactions. Some may fix you, some may rescue you…
It is also a big slap on their own face of seeking dialogue with citizenry – a pretension that is barely concealed below the surface that “dialogue” is going to be a one-way “SHUT UP AND SIT DOWN TALK DOWN to citizens and all sundry living in your words beautifully depicted words – a God’s gift on a barren rock. OR ARE THEY PERMANENTLY TALKING TO THEMSELVES!!!
Hahahahahahahaha… So what do you expect them to do? Become MPs and hide at home when the PM expects them to promote PAP? I was terminated from teaching after a session with dear ex-comrade Josephine. Emm… Hahahahahahahahahaha… Anyway, whatever happens need no explanation. But when crisis come hopefully those very good at fixings can help the PM…
You must understand the fairness issue here. Being vocal is volenteerily, if you got smashed you should expect that. Many years ago, Rajaretnam was also a vocal chap, he got arrested… See? Then he became an important comrade of MM.
Who knows?
What if you are vocal, you must mean what you said. If you fight for freedom of speech, you don’t moderate my comment… and moderate permanently.
It has come to my mind, whether you as a professed reasonable gentleman and/or any other ghosts inhabiting the freedom of speech domain of this little red dot agrees or not, that there is an apparent tightly interlocking link between the authorities and its preferred media channel that it is IMPOSSIBLE TO TELL WHEN A SPIN AND OR CENSORSHIP START AND END FROM THE POWER IN COMMAND OR THE GHOSTLY WRITERS IN OBDEDIENCE OF NO THOUGHTS.
You think way too much, and you don’t observe very well. People like this will always be unsure, will always shoot anyohow. Elfred’s ‘pattern’ is a long long brand name.
But then, do you think TOC doesn’t practise censorship to its own ‘rules’? Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha… If I tell you I am reasonable, then I am reasonable.
Mr. Elfred, WHERE DO YOU THINK THE DIALOGUE, IF IT EVER COMES, STARTS??? FROM CENSORSHIP STARTING POINT OR FROM SPINNING TOPS?
It’s a dialogue, you people will decide. If you have an assassin, we can see blood. If you have an insane, we have a good show. How can I answer? Hahahahahahahaha…
I am bewildered and continues to be bewildered. Maybe I should consult fortune teller on the nearby street for a speculative answer. It is cheap though…only $2 per conversational session though I am always skeptical of reliability of all fortune tellers.
You will never know unless you try, right????
Who knows? Have you ever wondered why Ravi’s application for that Yong would be rejected by president on advice by the cabinet, and then justice Chan (so I heard) recommend the president to endorse such appeal?
Don’t you even find it strange? Hahahahahahahahahahaha…
Sometimes, many things are not so simple and straight forward. Use your brain. Else, you’d always be bewildered.
Sometimes $2 can do wonders… Sometimes, a lawyer with $20,000 fees can do nothing. Just do what is right, and try. YP or not YP, PM wants a society he can be proud of, people want people to do the right things to have a better world. Don’t under-estimate, don’t over-estimate. When it’s right, it’s not wrong. If it’s wrong, it’s just not right.
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The good thing is after the death of the SIN dictator, there will be many books published that criticize SIN mis-abusement of power under the Lee Dynasty. Alex Tan will be quoted as someone who is sent to DB for blogging about public death of those who serve during NS. Alex Tan will be remembered forever in Singapore history who stand against coward PAP for seeking the truth and one who never bow down to peer pressure.
As for the kangaroos, those books will publicized their picture to shame them.
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i wonder how did Ypap admins access his military information?
hmmmmmmm……
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YPAP should be glad that people bothered to comment at their Facebook. They should be thanking Mr Alex Tan for his comments. Instead, YPAP use ST to attack Mr Tan.
Let’s us all STOP visiting YPAP Facebook. Let their Facebook die a natural death!!
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Elfred on Sun, 13th Dec 2009 8:29 pm
Thnaks for your further discourse.
1. Your “confession” is illuminating of organisational culture inside that big organisation.
2. Mr. Brown’s humour illuminates intelligence of wit and creative thinking. I COULD NOT DO THAT! Whether in the opposite switched role, he could or could not do a “perfect” job is a mooted point of speculation. But I do sincerely believe Mr. Bland would not be making a living without the backing of an employer organisation if he wasn’t talented. I believe a lot of those who ’shines” in large organisation could not survive outside on their own because they are parasitically thriving on organisational slacks. I see that from industry experiences.
2, Whether I think too much and don’t observe too well – you are entitled to your opinion. I did consultancy work for a long time lasting more than a decade on my own and thankfully not needing an employer through these difficult times – so it is either my luck has been inexplicably generous of shower or my clients (mostly businessmen and professionals) just competently blindly having not noticed my “incompetency of observations” to give me paychecks all these while. I am rejoicing it while the party last. Who knows if the economy busts again, I might be begging on the street the next time – when my clients all gone under. Having said that, I would NOT comment about Elfred brand in comparison, if it is only teaching with guide from books???
4. I didn’t for a moment suggest you delete my comment. But I did says comments by others had been deleted by censorship with a ghostly consistent pattern of behaviour. So you seems a bit more ticklish to think that far.
5. As for Ravi’s application for Yong, I am not privvy to information and prefers not to comment as it is ongoing for obvious legal reasons. I think you should be more circumspect of comments on this subject-matter – certainly in a public forum like this. I would NOT send any email to any business client like the substance you wrote here. If in doubt, speak to your own solicitor.
6. And your closing comment is your circus of thoughts, not adding value to this discourse. But I will be generous and allow space for freedom of speech and Elfred’s brand of thoughts.
Good night.
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rc on Sun, 13th Dec 2009 7:38 pm
i think Alex Tan should be happy that PAP let the whole world know that he was in DB for talking about a difficult issue. not only does it not take away any credibility, i think the fact that Alex Tan suffered for daring to speak up gives him more moral authority to speak up. i think YPAP erred tremendously in this instance
===============================================================
I whole-heartedly agree. Alex is a man of conviction. What can be greater than that?
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This episode reminds me of a time many moons ago when
an independently-minded lawyer criticized lky for something or other. Before long the ole fart had dug up the dusty record of the lawyer when he was a young lad and spread it all over parliament that the lawyer had stolen a bicycle in his youth and called him a BICYCLE THIEF!!!
Now, when the heap big chief does that can we expect anything less from his braves???
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Exposer,
You r quite right. Alex Tan shouldn’t be detented, and will go into the records. Anyway, too many SAF-related fiascos on records. I think the heat on SAF is building up too fast because of such reckless management that I am not surprised in the middle future, families will start calling in unison against NS.
In fact, I have issues with the management of SAF as well. But I know that we need conscription, but people will want to eventually tear it down… Well, recklessness against recklessness.
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Alex is right. We have to reconsider whether we NS is still needed here or can we just have a fully professional army. It is a debate that the nation should be having right at about this time.
Why NS? Who is our enemy? Can Singapore be defended? Wouldn’t a professional army do the job?
Who is Singapore going to fight a war with? Say we are in conflict with the Philippines. What do we do with the 300,000 Filipinos who are new citizens, PRs and work permit holders here? Looks like it is not possible to be in a conflict with Philippines and win. What about Vietnam? Same thing. They have close to 200,000 Vietnamese here. Myanmar? Not possible. 200,000 or more. China? Even worse. 1.2 million PRCs here.
Then who can with start a war with? Nobody I guess.
Maybe a professional army with a smaller budget would save everyone time and money.
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Fearful Of Ghost,
1. My confession is about as I have mentioned, in general for almost all big organisation. Even for smaller organisation as Chiam’s SDP, he’d ‘confess’ the same thing as well. Don’t try to be too smart, or we can’t have anything meaningful.
2. Your perception on (eg) Mr Brown is based on Industry preferences… Accordingly, as compared to all those Ministers including ex-comrade Yaacob in this subject, shouldn’t you perceive Mr Yaacob to be even more talented based on industry preferences…? Hahahahahahaha… I am not trying to mock you. But man should have his own capability in perception of man. If you perceive Me the way you perceive Mr Brown, of cos he is more talented than I am. And accordingly, that makes you much less talented since you can’t do what he did… Which based on this industry, you shouldn’t be talking about big organisations and my ‘confession’.
The point is, exercise wisdom. If you don’t even understand how perceive and ‘comprehend’, you’d be considered snobbish. I personally don’t see how creative Mr Brown is… and just like Jack Neo, they fetched big monies, but their work ain’t up to standards. You may consider changing the thinking.
3. MM Lee himself has won all those doctorates, written best-sellers memoirs, and obtain big donations for LKYSPP from big shots, and bla bla bla… Why are so many people doubting him still? Can you understand what I am driving at? You are trying to cover your points with things that you may not even stand for… Well… Replacing MM Lee with PAP will fetch the same result. But people still attack PAP…
I hope you can come out with real stuff befitting a ’successful’ consultant. Seriously, all those justifications ain’t suitable for Elfred.
4. That’s because the point raised is not relevant to my reference. And in the YP, various members have their own… style. As I have mentioned, I am the super reasonable type. Unless one insist on rubbish, I am fine with being reasonable even to oppositions and all those out to harm me. As for the rest, I can’t speak for them, even when I was a YP member.
You have to understand this basic issue, not everyone is a ghost.
5. Hahahahahahahaha… This case has become a public matter of which those pressure groups have made it a political story or case. Whether we can comment on not as an outsider, your solicitor should have informed you on this. There is no problem of public attention on such stories if TOC and even the MSM have brought things up, and thousands have been chatting over it, mostly speculating.
On a case by case basis, we are not here even to suggest whether Ravi or Yong should win or such. So don’t worry. Just assume we are another of those hundreds of comments, or readers of newpapers… Is that alright with you, and your solicitor? Hahahahahahahahaha…
6. Hahahahahahahaha… Your grace is most appreciated.
Hahahahahahahaha…
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MinDef is also a part of the huge engine. They are being run like any other GLC. And therefore, NS conscription should be abolished and be replaced by professional soldiers instead – helping to create employment.
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//Elfred on Sun, 13th Dec 2009 11:02 pm
“In fact, I have issues with the management of SAF as well. But I know that we need conscription, but people will want to eventually tear it down… Well, recklessness against recklessness.”
IF Taiwan can end military conscription, Singapore can do it too.
Although Taiwan is faced with a greater n mightier China, yet they go away with it. Our 2 years NS here is a waste of everyones time.
http://www.chinapost.com.tw/editorial/taiwan-issues/2009/03/13/199883/End-of.htm
In fact, our MinDef abused the system wholesale in this Alex’s case.
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Well,though like many,i must give credit to Alex for his daring, i would also consider the YPAP blog-whatever it is and is meant to be- a “PAP(READ PET) DOGS” BLOG.
Leave them alone,why waste your time with some people’s pets?
Feel like a true singaporean for you will be at home with TR,just like the rest of Singapore.
this is the real “happening” place where you can speak your mind and get honestly appreciated though some people may from time to time send their dogs to bark out loud?
so far,though,their efforts have been wasted unless they come clean of their nonsense.
TR,be at home with your countrymen!
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//based on justice on Sun, 13th Dec 2009 9:43 pm
“i wonder how did Ypap admins access his military information?
hmmmmmmm……”
The are the same bunch of people.
MinDef is a part of the engine like the others, runs with the one and same source of fuel supply. Intertwine to PAP.
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If u can’t take the harsh remarks, get out of the kitchen or u can shut up and sit down.
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@ Elfred on Mon, 14th Dec 2009 1:55 am
Thanks for the discourse again.
You are, like your comrades, very good is spinning the truth. You know it.From the short few conversations we shared, I will give you two examples
1. Your comment…”I am not the one deleting your comments. Ask Panter92, he talked rubbish again and again, and how many comments of his in my blog did I censored?” at at Elfred on Sun, 13th Dec 2009 8:29 pm
TELL ALL IN THIS TR BLOG WHERE DID I EVER MENTION YOU CENSORED MY COMMENT OR DID I MENTIONED ANYWHERE THAT I VISIT YOUR BLOG, MADE A POST AND YOU CENSORED IT – it is all FICTIONAL WRITINGS OF DEVIATION AND DISTRACTION OF YOUR INVENTION. You are pretending here that you are such a focal point of interest and talent that your “puny” (your word, not mine) blog is receiving attention from everyone including me. The simple truth – you are insignificant of presence to be taken seriously of your little narcissism much as you feel entittled to it.
2. Your comment above….”Your perception on (eg) Mr Brown is based on Industry preferences….” Ask ALL when did I said Mr. Brown is based on industry preferences” I made comment that “a lot of those who ’shines” in large organisation could not survive outside on their own because they are parasitically thriving on organisational slacks. I see that from industry experiences.”
You deliberate DISTORTED my word of “experiences” to your perversion of “preferences” and changed my reference to professionals working in organisations to “Mr. Brown”
YET YOU CLAIMED THAT …” If I tell you I am reasonable, then I am reasonable…” at Elfred on Sun, 13th Dec 2009 8:29 pm.
You also mentioned that I think too much. YES THAT IS TRUE. How else in my business can I survive if I THINK LESS THAN MY CLIENTS WHO ARE ALREADY SUCCESSFUL IN THEIR OWN WAYS AND PLACE. They would NOT need me otherwise.
You decried I do not observe very well – well, I said before, you are entittled to your opinion. I am NOT a reasonable man in this regard. i assumed you are very reasonable man as you claim evidently disclosed by those two funny distortions.
On Revi and Kong subject-matter, I won’t comment except that your further come back comment EVIDENTLY PROVED one of the three things
a) your are imminently NOT intelligent ( you can’t think at all) or
b) you don’t know law and you insist on barking nonsense proving the preceding observation I have just made
c) both a) and b) aforementioned.
In law, two wrong words used can send you into prison or two wrong words could end up with a legal case in the high court with lawsuit documented by paper the height of two feet thick. In my case, in this blog, it is only two words ” Ravi” and “Kong” which could be anybody of irrelevance. You lacked commercial experience, knowledge and not thinking encourage you to use words and lines I do NOT think very wise and if you are a politician, you could self-destruct by those words. BUT THAT IS YOUR PRIVILEGE. I respect that much
Finally, if you think you could bait me to discuss my business in this forum, you won’t get far. I respect client confidentiality and I protect my commercial interest. The furthest I could give hint is I am venturing into new horizons that is emerging out of US energy policy and is still evolving in the Copenhagen Climate Change meeting even as I write now. And if I give one step further of information private to your blog or email, you WOULD STILL BE CLUELESS in totality of blindness. What is the point?
As I said, you noted very quickly that I am “thinking too much” ( your words, not my pride) BUT THAT IS ESSENTIALLY MY SURVIVAL TOOL. I have no option, unlike you who can have the luxury of teaching from books. MY IS THE REAL WORLD OUTSIDE STANDING ON MY OWN TWO FEET – just like Banjamin Bland. I understand his talent and how he survive on those talent.
Elfred, please be graceful. Before you utter the next words of contempt for any others of their survival skills or intelligence, TRY GET OUT OF YOUR COMFORT TEACHING ZONE AND BE YOUR OWN BOSS and see if you could survive for a few lousy months.
I TELL YOU IT IS NOT EASY – YOU NEED TO DEMONSTRATE SUCCESS FOR SOMEONE TO EVEN BOTHER NOTICING YOU. This is my life experience. And when you are out on your own, the day you stop, you will find your knowledge and relevance disappeared into obscurity BECAUSE THE WORLD CHANGED SO FAST. In teaching, you read new published materials to keep up – sometimes you could not because the new stuff are beyond your head.
I know. I live in the real competitive world – every second and every minute.
and ONE LAST THING, please shred your constant artificial laughters to conceal your lack of knowledge and substance and debate like a real pro. PRETENTIONS ARE EASY TO SEE. In the business world, your client would NOT take your call if you behaves like this – they see you as a suspect of substance – RIGHTLY OR WRONGLY.
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@ Elfred on Mon, 14th Dec 2009 1:55 am
Thanks for the discourse again.
You are, like your comrades, very good is spinning the truth. You know it.From the short few conversations we shared, I will give you two examples
1. Your comment…”I am not the one deleting your comments. Ask Panter92, he talked rubbish again and again, and how many comments of his in my blog did I censored?” at at Elfred on Sun, 13th Dec 2009 8:29 pm
TELL ALL IN THIS TR BLOG WHERE DID I EVER MENTION YOU CENSORED MY COMMENT OR DID I MENTIONED ANYWHERE THAT I VISIT YOUR BLOG, MADE A POST AND YOU CENSORED IT – it is all FICTIONAL WRITINGS OF DEVIATION AND DISTRACTION OF YOUR INVENTION. You are pretending here that you are such a focal point of interest and talent that your “puny” (your word, not mine) blog is receiving attention from everyone including me. The simple truth – you are insignificant of presence to be taken seriously of your little narcissism much as you feel entittled to it.
2. Your comment above….”Your perception on (eg) Mr Brown is based on Industry preferences….” Ask ALL when did I said Mr. Brown is based on industry preferences” I made comment that “a lot of those who ’shines” in large organisation could not survive outside on their own because they are parasitically thriving on organisational slacks. I see that from industry experiences.”
You deliberate DISTORTED my word of “experiences” to your perversion of “preferences” and changed my reference to professionals working in organisations to “Mr. Brown”
YET YOU CLAIMED THAT …” If I tell you I am reasonable, then I am reasonable…” at Elfred on Sun, 13th Dec 2009 8:29 pm.
You also mentioned that I think too much. YES THAT IS TRUE. How else in my business can I survive if I THINK LESS THAN MY CLIENTS WHO ARE ALREADY SUCCESSFUL IN THEIR OWN WAYS AND PLACE. They would NOT need me otherwise.
You decried I do not observe very well – well, I said before, you are entittled to your opinion. I am NOT a reasonable man in this regard. i assumed you are very reasonable man as you claim evidently disclosed by those two funny distortions.
On Revi and Kong subject-matter, I won’t comment except that your further come back comment EVIDENTLY PROVED one of the three things
a) your are imminently NOT intelligent ( you can’t think at all) or
b) you don’t know law and you insist on barking nonsense proving the preceding observation I have just made
c) both a) and b) aforementioned.
In law, two wrong words used can send you into prison or two wrong words could end up with a legal case in the high court with lawsuit documented by paper the height of two feet thick. In my case, in this blog, it is only two words ” Ravi” and “Kong” which could be anybody of irrelevance. You lacked commercial experience, knowledge and not thinking encourage you to use words and lines I do NOT think very wise and if you are a politician, you could self-destruct by those words. BUT THAT IS YOUR PRIVILEGE. I respect that much
Finally, if you think you could bait me to discuss my business in this forum, you won’t get far. I respect client confidentiality and I protect my commercial interest. The furthest I could give hint is I am venturing into new horizons that is emerging out of US energy policy and is still evolving in the Copenhagen Climate Change meeting even as I write now. And if I give one step further of information private to your blog or email, you WOULD STILL BE CLUELESS in totality of blindness. What is the point?
As I said, you noted very quickly that I am “thinking too much” ( your words, not my pride) BUT THAT IS ESSENTIALLY MY SURVIVAL TOOL. I have no option, unlike you who can have the luxury of teaching from books. MY IS THE REAL WORLD OUTSIDE STANDING ON MY OWN TWO FEET – just like Banjamin Bland. I understand his talent and how he survive on those talent.
Elfred, please be graceful. Before you utter the next words of contempt for any others of their survival skills or intelligence, TRY GET OUT OF YOUR COMFORT TEACHING ZONE AND BE YOUR OWN BOSS and see if you could survive for a few lousy months.
I TELL YOU IT IS NOT EASY – YOU NEED TO DEMONSTRATE SUCCESS FOR SOMEONE TO EVEN BOTHER NOTICING YOU. This is my life experience. And when you are out on your own, the day you stop, you will find your knowledge and relevance disappeared into obscurity BECAUSE THE WORLD CHANGED SO FAST. In teaching, you read new published materials to keep up – sometimes you could not because the new stuff are beyond your head.
I know. I live in the real competitive world – every second and every minute.
and ONE LAST THING, please shred your constant artificial laughters to conceal your lack of knowledge and substance and debate like a real pro. PRETENTIONS ARE EASY TO SEE. In the business world, your client would NOT take your call if you behaves like this – they see you as a suspect of substance – RIGHTLY OR WRONGLY.
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Fearful Of Ghost,
Look, you are going erratic.
If you care to read the exchange again, you should read it on the relevant angle, and not from your own angle as many others do. If you do so, you’d only comprehend things from a one-sided fashion, like that Hsien Tau chap. And that chap who assert I hope to unsit LKY but I can’t. Hahahahahahahahaha…
Last time I might waste some time explain, but after all these years… if people don’t respect their own comprehension, it’s best not to waste so much time.
I don’t understand why I should ‘bait’ on you telling me your business? Why should I? If I am really here to hurt, if those YPs could have dug out pple’s details, why should I even ask or bait?
As for the rest of your… whatever, you are going too far on a discourse too much.
On Ravi’s issue, lemme be very clear here, I never touched on whether he did commit or not the crimes, what I did say is use your own brains on how come justice Chan could have made those comments. Where have I gone against the laws, when TOC, TemasekReview and even the newspapers are talking about this alongside with thousands of other speculations. See?
You are all very strange. I have been explicit all thesd years, very clear cut… I am no longer with the YP, the physical reality is I have no intention to fight against the PAP and no intention to fight against the oppositions nor to join it. For now, I am just a grassroot, and wondering which constitency is interesting enough to join for fun. While ‘Elfred’ is here just to kill time talking about current affairs.
You have to understand, if you are so blur, many others would. In order not to have so much ‘misunderstandings’, I still need PMO to cover my ass; which explain why I have no real intention to unsit MM Lee… Since MM probably realise that he is already aging, and the New Father of Singapore is so young. Heaven can claim him anytime in normal circumstances. See?
I shan’t go on with your insistence on guessing. But last and not least, the way that you think (eg) Brown is a talent becos of XYZ is about the same as the government does… The MM has his attention on the inflationary problems in China’s bubble, the reason why Singapore’s likely to get banged very hard and pants down is because of the way you perceive talents.
When Chiam first signed a DOCTOR Chee’s membership card, I’d bet he was also very very happy.
Hahahahahahahahahaha… Pretense… Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha…
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha…
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha…
You see, I have always been lamenting on MM Lee’s talk about a rugged population and the 100% education’s production issue. The reason why the government is both helpless and have to face such an increased pressure is because nothing goes reasonable.
According to you, Mr Brown is Creative and a talent, but Ming Yee’s more creative as a monk, his joke resonated in the Buddhist world as reported, he has the support of industry people such as Li Ka Shing and all those celebrities… So is our good old fucker, Durai. He shook the government’s integrity to the grounds, created a worldwide joke… and left for India reportedly for a good paycheck as a human resource whatever after raising simpletons.
Yes. I am intelligent, you people are… I am just a gust of fart, stupid and lowly educated, and jobless all these years. So have a nice day. Hahahahahahahahahahahaha…
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha…
Well, everyday life in Singapore.
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If Mr Tan reads TR at all, I would suggest he starts contributing at TR instead of YPAP. At least with TR, posts are NOT deleted because you don’t or do support the PaPies.
Mr Tan was unwise to start a battle on PAPies home ground. Instead, he should bring the war over to TR where the battlefield is neutral, that is IF the YPAPies are game enough and have the courage to take him on at TR.
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iamsure asked: correct me if im wrong. but isnt revealing someone’s ns record a breach of ns rules and a chargeable offence at that. anything under 7days of DB is never brought over to the public domain. 7days of DB or more is automatically equivalent to a prison record in civiliian life so anything in that category is public domain but 5days is not. i dont know if the rules have changed but when i was in ns i handles these matters so i know what im talking abt.
Correct me if I am also wrong but ANY RECORD for that matter is CLASSIFIED and should NOT have made it into public domain at all!
Military Law is exclusive and an entity on its own. A DB record remains a DB record, no such thing as a prison sentence record unless a Court Martial sentensed him to imprisonment in a civil prison, example: in the case of desertion which carries a minimum sentence of 3 years or more and have to be served in a civil prison as the DB cannot hold any detainee for more than 3 years.
reader asked: Is it legal and ok for a YPAP member to have access to Alex Tan’s NS records, and to publicize it in the public domain?
By virtue of this YPAP member’s appointment in real life (he may be an officer in Mr Tan’s previous camps or even his CO for that matter), he MAY have the authority and clearance to access Mr Tan’s NS records BUT he has no business or authority to release Mr Tan’s NS Records into public domain as he represent no law enforcing agency when he made his posts at YPAP’s site.
EVEN law enforcement agencies releases such records for a VALID REASON, ie: AGC making a representation at the Kangaroo Court, etc.
So NO, he SHOULD NOT and have NO LEGAL AUTHORITY to release such information into public domain, per se. Which is why I suggest that Mr Tan should IMMEDIATELY take a snap shot of the offending posts (before YPAP admins delete the post, of course) and make a formal report to the relevant authorities.
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NsMen in Green,
Somehow the earlier reply has gone with the wind because the connection is stuck.
It’s like this, Taiwan’s major problem is China, China’s major problem is USA. When Isreal was kena-ing bangings from the middle-eastern coalition, USA intervened and defeated the coalition.
For Singapore, I know many people are increasingly asking for NS to be torn down, and yes… SAF has enough casualities and cock up for tea talk. Even YPs were talking about this. So…
Anyway, I fully respect your intentions and views on NS issues, equally my respect to PM’s son’s views on SAF issues. As for me, I must repeat that I with my own eyes and sufferings during my time in his hellhole makes me realise that when I do become the minister, remaking SAF will be a priority agenda, alongside with dealing with the society and remaking Singapore fragile economy.
You must understand… When Goh Keng Swee first built the army among our Muslim neighbors, nobody wanna help… and he had to welcome Israel’s help, and to convince the parents to send in their children… Of course, if those parents see the current happenings, I suppose Dr Goh won’t have an easier time…
Anyway, so what makes you think that after all this trouble, your demand to close down NS will be entertained? The point, Singapore ain’t Taiwan, we look very peaceful… many got very complacent… So in peacetime, casualties and cock ups, parents cried, then there are these a few’s jail terms… and DB for Alex… But in real, suddenly Indonesia can make trouble in sands’ supplies… Malaysia can make demands based on Water, and so on.
If we don’t have the army, how can we handle such constant but forgotten threats? And what if we revolt? Who will shoot us with the military? And how to organise military intelligence and diplomacy without military? Without NS, we’d be short-handed.
So the realistic issue is not to tear down NS… but to hope that a minister who knows what to do step in asap. I can’t understand nobody likes fixings, cock ups, and those random troubles all because of fixings and cock ups, and of course, no one love deaths for themselves… and their children.
So many years we have witnessed such issues, but we cannot forget the relevant of military in good management. Time has changed, our economic situation and such show that this stubborm issue with NS must be deal with so that people can serve the state to defend it with pride and a good sense of purpose, and not for fixings and to confront barbaric superiors, gettng extras for nothing, doing duties with MCs, running with asthsma and back issues… See… I know all these problems.
So you people can go on and make noises, I won’t stop. I can’t stop more cock ups and casualites on one side, I can’t stop people from making noises. The only thing that I can do is to one day remake the military. And the only thing you people should be realistic in praying for, is to hope that I get to remake it.
But… you have to understand, a remake of SAF literally will spill all the dirty linens… So you have to wait for a PM who is really ready for turning things around for Singapore, and Singaporeans, then I can proceed on with my job…
To clean up the bloody mess.
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Elfred on Mon, 14th Dec 2009 10:14 am
“Fearful Of Ghost,
Look, you are going erratic.”
I WONDER WHO IS GOING ERRATIC?
You are in your zombie schizophrenic mind explosion, Elfred.
Here is the proof coming from your mouth..
“Which has been why I always recommend myself to talk nosense…” at
Elfred on Mon, 14th Dec 2009 9:53 am at YPAP member slammed by netizens for revealing critic’s detention record on Facebook December 14, 2009
You are exactly that you said of yourself – a gust of farts into your own mouth!!
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Elfred on Mon, 14th Dec 2009 11:07 am
Mr. Schizophrenic. I saw on another thread you blog saying you want to an the Education Minister. Now you want to be the Defence Minister.
When are you seeking to be the Cleaning Toilet Minister. I can create one for you.
Are you interested?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Stop being a gust of farts on TR please. We are interested in discussion of “intellectual” substance, not the …that I why I recommend myself to talk nonsense” of those lowly, uneducated unemployed for years.
HAHAHAHAHHAHA
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sinkapore ur right. even if it is not equivalent to civil record im sure ns records are sealed and kept only within mindef domains. it is definitely illegal to release the records. someone shld advice mr tan to take legal action against that particular person who did it. no point chasing the whole establishment or mr tan will get crowded out and sent packing. go after tat one hero who released ur records.
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Fearful Of Ghost,
Education, defence, manpower and etc… every ministry needs something. This island’s children ain’t just studying so that they don’t have a job and tomorrow they die before fighting to protect themselves from invaders…
The reason why I have to become the New Father of Singapore is precisely that the mess is big enough to accomodate 10 Elfreds… Hahahahahahahahahaha…
And that’s right, Elfred is talking nosense. There is never really a character in real life Elfredinario. Check the blog for his official background, he’s an alien… Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha…
Hahahahahahahahahaha…
Alright, have my fun. Ciao~
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@imsure: True, you can’t go after the entire system. That individual sole small fly YPAP is the one Mr Tan should be after.
There is suggestive a clear violation of applicable policies and law regarding the access to and release of such classified information’ and Mr Tan has a bona fide cause to make a formal complaint.
We all know how the system ‘covers well-connected’ persons so it would be an eye-opener for us all to see how far the system will go to twist and turn laws to cover this one.
We all are aware of the 200 metres rule applied by the AGC but this time round, 200 metre is NOT a consideration.
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//Elfred on Mon, 14th Dec 2009 11:07 am
Those are history being mentioned time and time again.
Today, Singapore is a first world country with influx of 1.2 million foreigners and having hundreds of billions in reserves to spend so its peanut to employ professional soldiers and to end military conscription.
Whats the point to have NS conscripts when they are not interested at all – U can try having a nationwide referendum.
Surely, paid soldiers will have better responsibility and true sense of belongings. They will defend the country better as well as defend those who feeds them rather NS conscripts – Taiwan is a clear example.
Todate, 5.9% Singaporeans are unemployed so why not create jobs for them in the SAF.?
You mentioned about Indonesia, a founding member of Asean like Singapore. Seriously, how can Asean co-operate and work together towards the benefits of 500 million peoples in the region when you cannot even trust your immediate neighbour?
Please lah, be forward looking and simply accept changes.
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Just a thought : by divulging Alex Tan’s DP record; is it a breach of the Official Secrets Act?
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nothing else to write about asked: by divulging Alex Tan’s DP record; is it a breach of the Official Secrets Act?
It really depends on WHO is the person divulging the information. OSA if I am not mistaken (too tired to check up) applies to person in capacity and clearance and with access to these information, crudely put.
A commoner would most probably be charge with a lesser offence, maybe illegal or unauthorised access?
Would any legal counsel care to enlighten us?
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Hit Alex Tan below the belt? he has nothing below his belt..
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Alex tan said about his own DB past in 3in1 kopitiam forum. it is an open forum so i guess everyone who went there read the thread will know. open secret lol.
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NSmenInGreen,
I understand where you come from. In fact, ask the streets of commoners, it’s always their sons, their jobs, their problems due to cock-ups and fixings in camps, etc to justify closing NS down.
I need to let you understand this Goh Keng Swee is no idiot, history has it this way because there was a need. International stability doesn’t come simply on… “Oh I am PAP, you are PAP, I trust you, you cover my ass…”
Politics is never like that lah… International relations are never like that. Just read histories, Shu and Wu were allies against Wei. Shu and Wu at the same time fought over Jing, Wu killed Guan Yu, Shu’s Liu poured his entire armies on Wu, Wu destroyed Shu… and who was the common enemy? Wei…
UN is also like this… APEC as well… ASEAN as well. Is Malaysia not ASEAN member? Can you trust when Malaysia has no more money they won’t use Water to squeeze us? Can you trust Indonesia not to have another Sukarno? Can you trust among the muslim states none will harbor terrorists against Singapore?
This is a simple understanding, and don’t come telling me I am offensive to neighbors. There is nothing offensive saying this. Basically, top to bottom… Singaporeans have become complacent. Just because you have no job, why so many foreigners are managers, and trainees to management openings…? Why not Singaporeans? Hahahahahahahaha…
Besides, if we want to end conscription and start paying those ‘doing NS’… actually why not? Since if you pay those NS man regular salary scales, there will be so much monies going to super scale people doing mostly nothing at Golf clubs. Hahahahahahahahaha…
I am agreeing with you on this paying part only because of the treatment on NS men and the officers’ usual inefficiencies that renders an exploitation on ‘national obligations’ based on moral grounds. To serve the nation is based on high moral grounds. Since nobody really observe this, why not? Why should people with MC still doing duties? Why should people with Asthma still doing 2.4? Why should people bear responsibilities for others’ cock ups? Why should commanders who don’t even bother about reading guidelines and ensuring safety of soldiers (doesn’t care) be getting good pay to kill NS men serving on moral high grounds?
Why?
Because those NS men and reservists are cheap?
They sacrifice studying and career opportunity cost in time and income just to be taken as cheap labor to be bullied around, for cover ups?
So you have a point… NS men and reservists must be paid. I hope DPM Teo would consider this point.
(But in reality, it’s still more realistic to expect a minister who knows what to do to step in early than to expect the state to open its reserves and start pouring NS men and reservists with gold.)
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@ Elfred on Tue, 15th Dec 2009 9:37 am
“UN is also like this… APEC as well… ASEAN as well. Is Malaysia not ASEAN member? Can you trust when Malaysia has no more money they won’t use Water to squeeze us? Can you trust Indonesia not to have another Sukarno? Can you trust among the muslim states none will harbor terrorists against Singapore?”
What utter nonsense of xenophobia!
So do you then bring in 10 million PRC to fortify this place?
STUPID you are!!
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All is Fair,
Hahahahahahaha… Saved for typos, I never said I m not stupid. Hahahahahahahahahahahaha…
Hahahahahahahahahahaha…
Hahahahahahahahahahaha…
But you want to remove NS? Well… dream on.
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@Get your facts right who said: Alex tan said about his own DB past in 3in1 kopitiam forum. it is an open forum so i guess everyone who went there read the thread will know. open secret lol.
Law is a very very funny thing, its NOT what you think or what you say outside the Court that matters, its what you CAN PROVE in Court.
So say for the purpose of discussion, 3in1 did NOT archive the posting nor can they (defendant) prove that the person who posted that information was indeed Alex Tan himself, think…
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Elfred on Tue, 15th Dec 2009 8:57 pm
“But you want to remove NS? Well… dream on.”
IMPORT PRCs soldiers..the PRC are cutting down manpower and demobilising part of their army….so there are maybe one million battle-ready men available, “CHEAPER, BETTER AND FASTER” Ministerial battle cry of the new era you have forgotten???
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
Add in the siblings of these “decommissoned” soldiers, we can also increase our population faster to 6.5 million. They costs nothing to import – simply order them to march down from Yunnan border!
HAHAHAHAHAHA
Frogs are more inteligent that you this confessed stupid “mosquito”. They have you for dinner.
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Dear everyone,
I invite you to http://hockrong.blogspot.com to find out more about the true story behind all the action at the Young PAP Network Facebook Group over the past few months involving Mr Alex Tan.
Do you think Mr Alex Tan should be taken seriously or not? Do you agree with the way he was writing in the Young PAP Network Facebook Group and Young PAP Fan Page?
Thank you and regards.
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stop do you-ing us, stupid shr! you are not our boss, so stop talking like one. i am already so sick of your bloody face. FO!
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