Pastor Rony Tan and the great homosexuality debate
February 24th, 2010 | 
Author: By Richard Lu
There is an interesting, intense on-going discussion in the Temasek Review pages on Pastor Rony Tan’s views and comments on lesbians and homosexuals in a video posted on the Lighthouse Evangelism website (since removed). I choose not to delve into religion.
Many of us so called liberals deem we are all created equal and must not discriminate on the basis of sex, gender, creed and color of the skin and we should all fight for human liberation as a whole. Neither should sexual orientation, gender, creed and color govern our meritocratic system of government or other organizations wherein appointments are made and responsibilities assigned to individuals based on proven talents and abilities. Discrimination should also not dictate our ability to lead for otherwise it must surely divide us. It is unproductive at best and counterproductive at worst.
Homosexual acts were decriminalized in some parts of the Western world (e.g. Poland – 1932, Denmark – 1933, Sweden – 1944, United Kingdom – 1967). It was not until the mid-1970s that the gay community first began to achieve limited civil rights in some developed countries. The turning point was in 1973 when the American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, thus negating its previous definition of homosexuality as a clinical mental disorder. In 1977, Quebec became the first country in the world to prohibit discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation. Most developed countries have enacted laws decriminalizing homosexuality.
Homophobia is a term that represents negative attitudes or actions toward homosexuals. Homophobia is prejudices toward homosexuals, fears and negative beliefs or attitudes that accompany this prejudice. Rigid sex role stereotypes are barriers to accepting homosexuality in both homosexuals and heterosexuals. Lesbian and gay people are often discriminated in employment, housing, and services. In some liberal societies e.g. America, many unsophisticated minds would rather tolerate Mormon polygamists and abortionists than gays.
Homosexuality in history and religions
Homosexuality (defined as sexual interest in and attraction to members of one’s own sex) had been variously approved, tolerated, punished or prohibited during different eras, cultures, and religions. Homosexuality was not uncommon in ancient cultures. In most of Africa, Asia, and Latin America, both the subject and the behavior are considered taboo, with some slight exceptions made in urban areas. The ancient Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans generally accepted homosexual behavior within certain contexts.
· Hinduism and Buddhism view homosexuality from the standpoint of its karmic effects.
· Jewish, Christian, Sikh and Muslim cultures have generally perceived homosexual behavior as sinful.
· Many Jewish and Christian leaders, however, have gone to great lengths to stress that it is the homosexual acts and not the homosexual individuals or their “orientation” that is condemned.
· In recent developments, some liberal Protestant Christianity and Reform Judaism advocate the full acceptance of homosexuals and their relationships.
Liberal Singaporeans’ views
In six countries, homosexual behaviors are punishable by life imprisonment; in ten others, it carries the death penalty.
In Singapore Section 377A of the Penal Code of Singapore is the main remaining piece of legislation which criminalizes sex between mutually consenting adult men. Section 377A (“Outrages on decency”) states that: “Any male person who, in public or private, commits, or abets the commission of, or procures or attempts to procure the commission by any male person of, any act of gross indecency with another male person, shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to 2 years.”
How should Lesbians Gays Bisexuals Transgender (LGBT) persons be treated
It is no surprise that major conflicts exists over equal rights and protections for gays and lesbians, including whether to alter the definition of marriage to include same-sex marriage. Within even a single religion e.g. Christianity, we see active, un-resolvable debates over how persons with a homosexual or bisexual orientation should be treated. Amongst the more vocals, the arguments are diametrically opposite.
The Christians in Singapore are by nature conservative and many are vocal and regard same-sex behavior as profoundly immoral and hated by God regardless of the nature of their relationships. Most advocate continuing the current denials and restrictions.
However, most LGBTs, their friends and families, including some religious liberals (Christians included) and progressives, secularists, mental health professionals and their associations, civil libertarians, human sexuality researchers, etc. favor equal rights and protections for persons of all sexual orientations, including the right to marry. You see, these are the more enlightened with the “live and let live spirit”.
Religious moderates tend to be split between the conservative and liberal viewpoints. Supporters for same-sex marriage remain in a minority, but may be increasing in numbers. Many favor the hate-crime laws to include violent crimes motivated by hatred of the victim’s sexual orientation. Most regard homophobia – any denial of human rights based on sexual orientation – to be as profoundly immoral as is sexism and racism. Most believe that homosexual, heterosexual and bisexual orientation and behavior are not intrinsically sinful and would like to see persons of all sexual orientations protected from abuse, firing, discrimination in accommodation, violence in hate crimes, etc.
Section 377A of the Penal Code
Quilting Wikipedia: “What is clear from the rejuvenated debate on whether homosexual acts under should be decriminalized is that passions run high over this issue. And where passions run high, reason often runs dry. Much ink has been spilt arguing whether homosexuality is about nature or nurture, choice or instinct, whether it is sinful or simply an alternative choice of lifestyle. It is unlikely that a consensus is going to be reached anytime soon……. Indeed, for over 10 years, there has been no prosecution under section 377A for gay sex between consenting adults.”
Here is a paradox and a contradiction, for we are a global and vibrant city with an archaic law. Does it mean that there are gay activities in Singapore? By the way, Section 377A criminalizes only male homosexual activities but not lesbian acts.
What is the purpose of retaining Section 337A?
Ms. Indranee Rajah, a PAP MP and former chairperson of the GPC for Law and Home Affairs, reiterated the MHA’s “assurance” that it would not actively prosecute people under that section.
PM Lee Hsien Loong: “However, as recognition that homosexuals do and are contributing to the country, 377A would also not be actively enforced. Homosexuals would be left to lead their lives in privacy.”
I see no purpose in its retention but Pastor and the Lighthouse Evangelism should be mindful of what PM Lee said i.e. “Homosexuals would be left to lead their lives in privacy.”
How should Singaporeans treat LGBTs?
As Singaporeans fight for human liberation as a whole, we cannot exclude the rights of the gay people. This fight is part of our democratization process. Whilst we do not encourage LGBT activities nor condone them, we DO NOT promote nor discriminate. It is morally wrong as our actions will come back to haunt us later. This is how Singaporeans should view and react to gay people in our community.
In the West, politicians looking for votes have even joined gay parades and approved civil unions for gays. LBGTs have gained ground over several years and now they celebrate how far they have come in their gay parades. I am hopeful the day will not come when our politicians have to elicit the votes of the LGBTs in exchange for standing up for their rights.
Finally, I quote Jesus Christ and the Bible: “Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s.” Christians, do not deny the LGBTs their rights!
*Notes: The terms “LGBT” and “GLBT” are acronyms for: “Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender/Transsexual, and “Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender/Transsexual.” Sometimes, additional letters “Q” for Queer, “I” for Intersexual. Persons with all three sexual orientations – (heterosexual, bisexual and homosexual) and various sexual identities (cisgendered, transsexual, transgendered) are sometimes included.
Posted in 
Finally, I quote Jesus Christ and the Bible: “Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s.” Christians, do not deny the LGBTs their rights!
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The above quote refers to paying taxes.
What rights did the Christian deny the LGBTs.
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Replying to Andrew Leung on 24 Feb@5:25pm,
Ya, totally agree with Andrew Leung that statement. That statement only refers to govt and paying taxes to govt, it is totally not the context for LGBT.
The writer in the article totally distorted the meaning and the interpretation of the Word of God. Disgusting!!!!
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>@protest on Wed, 24th Feb 2010 5:36 pm
>Ya, totally agree with Andrew Leung that statement. That statement only refers to govt and paying taxes to govt, it is totally not the context for LGBT.
>The writer in the article totally distorted the meaning and the interpretation of the Word of God. Disgusting!!!!
>
>
>
Both the writer (for quoting the bible book) and you are the most disgusting unthinking persons!
Please do not, I repeat DO NOT, quote anything more from the bible book.
Just argue as rational persons, will you?
Please do not bring your religion into this at all. Because the situation is already complicated enough without bringing in religion. Why create even more problems?
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If you want to debate about homosexual debate, you can go ahead, why do you want to drag Pastor Rony’s name with it.
Try to increase the rating of TR, this is not the way. Richard Lu, if you are a gay, so continue to live as a gay. Why don’t you just comment on PAP and stop bothering Rony this way.
You are inciting the people again to go after the Christian if you continue to drag Pastor Rony’s name into your discussion. He has humbly move away feeling sorry about wrongful religious preaching.
I humbly ask of you to stop going after Pastor Rony and ask PAP to make your sexual inclination legal whatever you want. Since you want to be gay, you continue to be gay, though I advise you not be one, but I have no right to stop you being one.
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Putting religion aside too :
The biggest argument from gays is that this is genetic, they are born that way – and cannot help it. Well , if this is truly genetic, the genes would have eventually die off – since they do not procreate.
This leads to only 1 logical conclusion – it has to be something acquired – aka not what nature intended.
For your amusement , the gay community is so desperate to justify their normality that they are claiming that uncle can pass gay genes to nephews.
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/02/11/gay-uncles-pass-genes/
What next – gay genes can be transmitted on MRT, toilet seats ?
If it can be passed around – shouldn’t it be named as virus, germs, disease – instead of ‘genes’ ?
The other argument is that such behavior can be observed in the animal kingdom. Well, in the animal kingdom, the parents also makan their spouse and young. We do ?
I do not see Rony advocating any form of violence against the gay community other than what is already national policies.
The only thing I can see out of this is that the gay are being opportunistic and trying to stir up anti-Christian sentiments by riding on his comments about Budhhism.
Shame ! Shame !
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A VOTE was taken by the American Psychiatric Association to declassify homosexuality as a disorder. More of that in detail here. http://bit.ly/dCAIe8 There’s no scientific backup to support homo is not an abnormality.
Imagine a group of doctors gathering to vote an ailment not an ailment.
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Here we go again. More “love” from the “Christians”.
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Live and let live! Gays and lesbians are people too. I have colleagues and friends who are gays. When they know you are straight they will be discreet about their orientations. They are some of the most creative and hardworking people I met so far. I wonder how many homophobic people have friends or colleagues who are gays? Do they know who are they judging? How can one judge another if you do not really know that person? By the way, I am straight and happily married and have 3 children and no I was not ‘touched’ by a gay when I was young.
I just want to say to each his own. To dehumanise a particular group in a society is a prelude to more terrible atrocities. The Nazi dehumanised the Jews, the Serbs dehumanised the Bosnians, the Turks dehumanised the Armenians, the Hutus dehumanised the Tutsis and so many other examples. Do narrow minded people need to ostracise and persecute minorities to make themselves feel more worthy or to explain their problems in life? By the way, there is a Christian congregation in Singapore that consists of homosexuals and they are being administered by a straight pastor.
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Why U people bother to debate on tihs matter, As in my bible said a Pariah perosn should not be allow to be a preacher.Where he did not understood other religion deeply.
Somemore he is an alien,
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Oh Tham Eng on Sat, 13th Feb 2010 11:59 am
Dear Mr. Oh
I refer to your comments titled GOOD IDEA TO LOCK UP IN JAIL PASTOR RONY TAN and posted on 13 Feb. 2020 at 11.59am.
Are you seriously suggesting we put Pastor Rony Tan on trial? Capital idea indeed Sir, seeing this is what many are clamoring for and would welcome except our double-standards Government that is assiduously avoiding one!
Let me say this – under our constitution, only the courts can sentence someone to jail for jailing is the ultimate deprivation of one’s freedom. Jail terms are sentences to punish. The ISD can only detain. The ISD is an abnormally and its existence fundamentally conflicts with the judiciary. Even the military have courts. I am no constitution expert but the ISD in some sense negates the judiciary.
A little history – Colonial Malaya introduced the ‘Emergency Regulations’ in 1948 in response to a communist challenge. By 1960, the Emergency was declared over. The Malayan Internal Security Act was passed in its place. Tunku Abdul Rahman promised that the ISA would be applied against only the remaining Communist insurgents.
In 1965 when Singapore separated and became an independent nation, it retained the ISA. The infernal ISA confers on the government the right to arrest and detain individuals without trial in certain defined circumstances. Many countries have their internal security apparatus. Only Singapore and Malaysia maintains the dreaded ISA – used not on “remaining Communists insurgents” but mainly on the opposition politicians.
And if the law had been applied to it fullest extent, Pastor Rony Tan would, without an iota of doubt, be pronounced guilty of breaching the Sedition Act and jailed.
From your pleadings on Temase Review, you are more than a fan of Pastor Rony Tan. It could even be blind faith – belief without true understanding, perception, or discrimination. If so, this is very bad.
Sorry Sir, I do not believe in a god or life-after-death for you see, I lost my faith in Faiths a long time ago. The result is I have since become more objective in my endeavors. For all your religiosity, your suggestion that “This man likes to pray for people ……as he has great faith in God to heal and change the lives of the sick, the hopeless and those in demonic bondage” is most ludicrous. You sound David Copperfield-like. And if Pastor Ronnie Tan goes to jail, it is punishment or pay-back time that he will justly and rightly beget. It is not a time for praying for other inmates or be a chaplain-in-residence. Unless the jail is also his!
As for your other statement, “God likes to hear his prayers for others” this must be another of your jokes. Come on, Mr. Oh Sir – hit me, hit me, hit me but don’t crap me! Temasek Review is a serious forum and I hope you do not demean it with your preposterous suggestions. Please save these for your Lighthouse Evangelism.
TR has been generous to afford you the space and time but I pray that you be objective in future and I also pray you do not visit us with “the sick”, “the hopeless”, “demonic bondage”, “wasted lives”, “His great works of redemption” etc. TR is not on a divine mission. And in the place of your esoteric biblical quotes why not some of these humbler, down-to-earth ones on justice :
• “To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle.”
• “Easy is right. Begin right and you are easy. Continue easy and you are right. The right way to go easy Is to forget the right way And forget that the going is easy.”
• “Not only must Justice be done; it must also be seen to be done.”
By the way, there are no “unforgiving Taoists and Buddhists” for “True religion, like our founding principles, requires that the rights of the disbeliever be equally acknowledged with those of the believer”….. Powell Davies.
Finally Sir, your quote: “For the noblest in God’s sight is he/she who is the most righteous”. I ask if you or Pastor Rony Tan have been noble and righteous in asking for forgiveness without punishment and sincere repentance?
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@ Concerned Citizen
So you have kids. If you live and let live, does it mean it’s ok if one or more of your kids is/are gay?
If you think it’s ok, then you are a true supporter and you can live and let live.
If you think it’s not ok, then stop taking the moral high ground and think that it’s ok to be gay, “as long as it’s not my own kids”.
@ the rest, check out this website to know more about the real agenda behind homosexuality and feminism:
http://www.savethemales.ca/
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Gays are freaks. Period.
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@Concerned Citizen
its this kind of generalised rubbish that gives gay ppl legs to stand on. u take a look into their personal lives and see for real what the damage is to them.
what pastor rony said isnt wrong. and he based what he says on the confession of a lady. unless ur trying to say the lady is lying? he makes it clear that there are ppl out there who are genuinenly gay and then there are ppl who get influenced into homosexuality. what’s wrong with that? just bcos u dont like it doesnt mean its not true. it is true. and u open ur eyes and listen to the stories of the ppl and u’ll know it.
rony makes his statement with a real person to back him up with personal stories and u still call it a lie. that shows what kind of an insecure people homosexuals are.
and stop with this discrimination nonsense. no one cares what u do in ur bedroom. u dont have to flaunt it or show it to anyone else or ask ppl to support u. what are u being discriminated against? arent gay ppl working in spore? dont they have partners? dont bring this american based nonsense here abt gay rights, discrimination or whatever. this is singapore not america. there are so many locals who are genuinenly being discriminated bcos of race, nationalitly. social background etc. so what is so SPECIAL abt ur cause? its nothing more than a reason to find legitimacy for ur own behaviour.
i say this cos i know ppl first hand who’ve had their lives ruined like that lady in the rony tan video. for all those ppl who are blindly supporting all this gay agenda u wait till it happens to someone close to u and then u see. thats all i can say.
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@Huh?? on Wed, 24th Feb 2010 6:08 pm
>>>>>The biggest argument from gays is that this is genetic, they are born that way – and cannot help it. Well , if this is truly genetic, the genes would have eventually die off – since they do not procreate.
>>>>>This leads to only 1 logical conclusion – it has to be something acquired – aka not what nature intended.
iF YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IS GENETICS, OR MEDICAL GENETICS, PLEASE DO NOT LIE.
There are many medical diseases that is genetics, and the sufferers never live to age-bearing age to leave off-spring (ie, they dont procreate), but the disease still stays on.
Notable examples are Thalesseamia, Neuroblastoma, Retinoblastoma, and many metabolic diseases (eg Hunter-Hurler syndrome)
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@Solo Bear on Wed, 24th Feb 2010 6:10 pm
>>>>>A VOTE was taken by the American Psychiatric Association to declassify homosexuality as a disorder. More of that in detail here.
In 1973, american psychiatric association made the landmark decision that HOMOSEXUALITY is not a mental disorder.
If you argued that, it was under pressure that the APA took a vote. Well, it was 37 years had pass, and there are a lot of conservative members in the APA (many were fundamentalist christians too).
Well, in the first place, the vote was , more agreed that homosexuality is not a mental illness. And despite all the canvessing to keep it there, APA never went back on the decision.
Those originally presnt in 1973, the conservatives did not managed to convince the medical and scientific community that it should be classified as a mental illness.
And for 37 years, these conservative members keep quiet, and did not push for re-instating it.
And, for the last 37 years, the medical and scientific communities accepted it, and MORE and MORE medical and scientific communities adopt the position of APA. Those include WHO, British psychiatric association, canadian psychiatriy society, and so on.
APA could be taking a vote, but the remaining scientific and medical communities can choose to ignore the decision (it they are convicted that homosexuality is indeed a mental illness), BUT THEY DID NOT, more and more medical and scientific community agree that it is not a mental illness.
In 2005, even china take homosexuality out of their diagnosis too.
So, are you saying, the rest of the medical and scientific community are as gulliable as APA ??? NO ???
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@GoingAUSoon on Wed, 24th Feb 2010 7:45 pm
So you have kids. If you love to discriminate, does it mean it’s ok if one or more of your kids is/are gay, and the entire society and community is discriminating your kids?
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notconvinced on Wed, 24th Feb 2010 8:06 pm
“rony makes his statement with a real person to back him up with personal stories and u still call it a lie. that shows what kind of an insecure people homosexuals are.”
Have you ever heard this thing call “Acting”?
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I am not a gay right activist or pro-gay in anyway. I just want to say that gays are people too and to discriminate them is wrong. As one author above mentioned what if my son would turn gay one day, whether I can still be standing on moral high ground? If after I have done my best to educate him in morality, family values, sex education and even keep an eye of his aquaintances and he still turn gay then it could really be something intrinsic and not extrinsic that makes people gay. That I can live with it as he is my son. Sometimes we all need to calm down and examine the real motives of our predudice we will see most are nothing but delusions to make ourselves feel exclusive and superior than the perceived inferior group.
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citizenofSG
Richard brought RT into the picture because RT insisted on demonising lgbt and incite hatred towards these people and insist he has the right to do this. We would soon not hear anymore of the biggest bigot RT. If you want to support him that is your right.
1.Do the lgbt has a right in this society? Does society
has a right to penalise them just because they are different? Are they human beings? Are they contributing to society?
2.Do their public activities treatened society? If so how? If their public activities are not acceptable as our society’s social norm then they can be conscribe by
law or policy but shouldn’t they have right to their
private activities just like any other person whose
private activities are not necessary judged by society as wholesome. Shouldn’t 377A be amended?
All the prejudice and hatred initiated by bigots like RT especially when he uses the cover of ‘love’ is against
anyone’s sense of justice.
Everyone has preferences and a right to their prejudices but to incite hatred towards any section of society is wrong if not criminal.
I am not pro lgbt but as long as their activities do not
threaten society they should not be censured or discriminated.
Personally I am against gay marriages because it has
so many ramifications on the society at large but that
does not mean I should censure or discriminate against
gays or lesbians as persons. It is not a contradiction.
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@ Now not talent anymore
“more and more medical and scientific community agree that it is not a mental illness.”
Prove the above to us.
http://www.henrymakow.com/_left_albert_pike_1809-1891by.html
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@ Now not talent anymore
You are missing the whole point, aren’t you? Don’t argue for the sake of arguing. I don’t support gay because it will hurt me if my kids were to contract this mental disease. Period.
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It is great to see so much debate here with less and less religious ‘thought’.
Someone said in an above post that since it is proven that homosexuality is not genetically inherited, there can be only one explanation, which is that it is acquired trait. This reasoning is deeply flawed in that there’s no provision for other possible explanations. If the issue is as simple and conclusive as that, there wouldn’t have been so much reversion of previously thought conclusive pronouncements and official stands by competent authorities around the world.
At the risk of being accused of ‘treading back into the religious arena’ I offer a third possibility which is spiritual rather than religious.
Couldn’t it be that the genuinely-oriented homosexual is just an expression of the soul personality within the physical body of the person, namely the thinking soul personality? In other words, the person thinks and acts like a person of the opposite gender,though he/she may be ‘residing’ in the physical body of the opposite gender?
I ‘believe’ science (of consciousness) will one day discover this concept to be the truth.
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Replying……. to Tom DickHarry@5:56pm
Now, who is the one who is irrational now??? Do enlighten me.
I was putting a comment which based on the article, and also a response from a commentator andrew leung, which what he says is absolutely correct.. Even if you go and ask any christian leaders, they will tell you the same, that phrase itself truly interpreted in this meaning. Mind u!!! I think you are getting yourself too personal over this.
Next, i do not know why are you getting so offended so easily. I just speak accordingly, that’s all! I do not know whether you are a gay or lesbian, but if you do, i have never harbour any intention to discriminate this category groups of ppl, believe it or not, i leave it as it is. I don’t have to prove or defend it at all, becos it’s from the heart. Moreover, i have not intentionally bring in to any religious flow which i think you are the one who is too irrational in your narrow and short thinking!!! Absolutely disgusting you are by humtan me in such a cruel manner!!!!
Last, this is a forum. Everyone of us have the right to free up their speech. If i do not free up your speech , so do not free up my speech also, ok!!! Please learn to respect!!! This is human respect, im teaching you!!!
Last but no least, thanks but no thanks will i further argue over something which is a waste of my time of arguing. Bye…
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Think……why do some people like pineapples while other hates it?
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@ GoingAUSoon on Wed, 24th Feb 2010 9:07 pm
Statement by American Academy of Pediatrics (http://www.aap.org/)
Under “Family and Community Resources”
click on “I think i might be gay. What should I do? ”
http://www.aap.org/publiced/BR_GayTeen.htm
All of the major medical organizations, including The American Psychiatric Association, The American Psychological Association, and the American Academy of Pediatrics agree that homosexuality is not an illness or disorder, but a form of sexual expression.
1973 American Psychiatric Association made the decision.
And more and more medical and scientific bodies in the world, including WHO adopted the decision and upheld the decision.
Even singapore Ministry adopt the DSM-IV-TR and WHO-ICD-10 which do not include HOMOSEXUALITY as a medical illness (medical entity)
If you dont believe, go to IMH, go to A&E-room (hello, that is not Accident & Emergency) , in IMH, A&E refers to Admission and Evaluation.
Tell the doctor there, that you have homosexuality, and ask for admission. See if any Psy MO will even entertain you, or admit you. They will just tell you, HOMOSEXUALITY is not a mental illness.
Hello, for the last 35 years or so, not a single admission of our public hospital is for HOMOSEXUALITY. Not even as a secondary diagnosis. What is the diagnosis code of homosexuality ?? if it is a mental illness ??? All illness has a disease code., but HOMOSEXUALITY dont even have a disease code, so it is not a illness at all.
I quote you medical authorities, and what have you to say?? Use a webpage as your medical authorities ??? How laughable.
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@ GoingAUSoon on Wed, 24th Feb 2010 9:08 pm
You wrote : “You are missing the whole point, aren’t you? Don’t argue for the sake of arguing. I don’t support gay because it will hurt me if my kids were to contract this mental disease. Period.”
Hello, please tell me, what is the diagnosis code for HOMOSEXUALITY as a medical or mental illness has. All mental or medical illness has a diagnosis code.
Do you ever have ICD-10 or DSM-IV-TR, i doubt you ever had even know the colour of the cover of these two books. All diagnosis criteria of ANY medical or mental illness are listed there. Doctors dont just say you have such-and-such illness, the diagnosis have to fit a fixed set of diagnosis criteria, which is listed in this two books. And if there is no such diagnosis, you just cant make up a illness for it.
If you are not a doctor, dont tell lies as “homosexuality is a mental illness” PERIOD, You shall be judged for lying under the 10th commandment.
Do you lie ?? IS HOMOSEXUALITY A INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNISED MENTAL OR MEDICAL ILLNESS ??? Dont lie.
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@Concerned Citizen
its this kind of generalised rubbish that gives gay ppl legs to stand on. u take a look into their personal lives and see for real what the damage is to them.
what pastor rony said isnt wrong. and he based what he says on the confession of a lady. unless ur trying to say the lady is lying? he makes it clear that there are ppl out there who are genuinenly gay and then there are ppl who get influenced into homosexuality. what’s wrong with that? just bcos u dont like it doesnt mean its not true. it is true. and u open ur eyes and listen to the stories of the ppl and u’ll know it.
rony makes his statement with a real person to back him up with personal stories and u still call it a lie. that shows what kind of an insecure people homosexuals are.
and stop with this discrimination nonsense. no one cares what u do in ur bedroom. u dont have to flaunt it or show it to anyone else or ask ppl to support u. what are u being discriminated against? arent gay ppl working in spore? dont they have partners? dont bring this american based nonsense here abt gay rights, discrimination or whatever. this is singapore not america. there are so many locals who are genuinenly being discriminated bcos of race, nationalitly. social background etc. so what is so SPECIAL abt ur cause? its nothing more than a reason to find legitimacy for ur own behaviour.
i say this cos i know ppl first hand who’ve had their lives ruined like that lady in the rony tan video. for all those ppl who are blindly supporting all this gay agenda u wait till it happens to someone close to u and then u see. thats all i can say.
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@ GoingAUSoon on Wed, 24th Feb 2010 9:08 pm
You wrote : “You are missing the whole point, aren’t you? Don’t argue for the sake of arguing. I don’t support gay because it will hurt me if my kids were to contract this mental disease. Period.”
I can gurantee your kids will never contract this mental disease, BECAUSE HOMOSEXUALITY is NOT a mental disease. It does not have a diagnosis entity, so no doctor can make such a diagnosis.
Any doctor who make a diagnosis (of a non-existence illness) can be brought to Singapore Medical Council for making a fake illness. PERIOD.
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Statement of American College of Pediatrics:
Homosexuality is not a mental disorder. All of the major medical organizations, including The American Psychiatric Association, The American Psychological Association, and the American Academy of Pediatrics agree that homosexuality is not an illness or disorder, but a form of sexual expression.
Incidentally, ACP is the national pediatrics body of USA, all the pediatricians in USA must be a member of ACP to be recognised as a specialist. Just like Academy of Medicine which maintain the Specialist register (on behalf of SMC) which then qualify you to be called a specialist.
ACP is one of the external examiners for Singapore Ministry of Health and NUS-post grad medical school. MOH send our pediatrician specialist to ACP for further training (after they already qualify as pediatrician) to sub-specialise in some finer aspect of pediatrics.
So, the authority of American College of Pediatrics is a reputable authorities.
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“GoingAUSoon on Wed, 24th Feb 2010 9:08 pm
You are missing the whole point, aren’t you? Don’t argue for the sake of arguing. I don’t support gay because it will hurt me if my kids were to contract this mental disease. Period.”
Instead of searching online why not speak to a real authority on mental health? My schoolmate is a psychiatrist and we have discussion on homosexuality as a pathology. According to him, Homosexuality cannot be classified as a mental disease as it does not exhibit delusions, hallucinations, willful anti-social behaviours and most importantly poor state of self-care. The classical psychiatric view on homosexuality is that it is a form of personality disorder or dissociative disorder but newer diagnostic tools and psychiatric practice of the 1970s find medicalising homosexuality has very few scientific basis. Therapies and treatments for homosexuality in the early part of the 20th century had poor theraputic outcomes. Hence, psychiatrists removed homesexuality from the DSM manual of diagnosis.
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@ Harry TomDick on Wed, 24th Feb 2010 9:08 pm
>>>>>>> Couldn’t it be that the genuinely-oriented homosexual is just an expression of the soul personality within the physical body of the person, namely the thinking soul personality? In other words, the person thinks and acts like a person of the opposite gender,though he/she may be ‘residing’ in the physical body of the opposite gender? ‘believe’ science (of consciousness) will one day discover this concept to be the truth.
Actually American Academy of Pediatrics had affirmed that HOMOSEXUALITY is a form of sexual expression. AAP had also affirmed that HOMOSEXUALITY is not a mental disorder.
In their patients education materials :”I think i am gay, what should i do” (http://www.aap.org/publiced/BR_GayTeen.htm) AAP stated that :
Homosexuality is not a mental disorder. All of the major medical organizations, including The American Psychiatric Association, The American Psychological Association, and the American Academy of Pediatrics agree that homosexuality is not an illness or disorder, but a form of sexual expression
For a start, AAP are professional body, the national acreditation body for USA for exit-exams of pediatrics, And NUS Post-grad medical school invites them to hold exams for MMED (Paed) and this is a entry level exams, higher level than MBBS exam which only qualify successful examinee to be medical doctors. Those external examiners from AAP , once they pass the examinees in MMed (Paed) will be recognised by MOH-SMC AM to be a specialist.
Moreover, every year, MOH sent specialist to AAP for HMDP (AST: advance specialist training) to train to become Consultants and Senior Consultants.
Sure, you need not trust my authority, BUT MOH and NUS trust these authorities. And it is prudent for the readers of these thread to know who AAP is.
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“The birth order effect on homosexuality is probably a by-product of a mechanism that shifts personalities more in the feminine direction in the later born sons, reducing the probability of these sons engaging in unproductive competition with each other.”
http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/stalkers/em_homosexuality.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternal_birth_order_and_male_sexual_orientation
For further reading, if you think biology have little to no link to homosexuality – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation
If you seriously think its “curable”, even the ex-chairman of the largest ex-gay ministry Exodus International showed otherwise – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Paulk
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Erm….well the saga starts again. So much for live and let live.
With regards to gay people destroying their own lives cos of sexual orientation, pick one miserable gay or lesbian person and i can can show you many happy gay singles or even couples who been together for over 20 years. Many.
Same situation for str8 people.
As for ex-gay people who got married – well i know more than 10 people personally who got married cos of family, society or religious pressure and they are fooling around outside with men behind the wives back. How sad is that? And i feel the most sympathy not for the man, but for his wife and kids and the potential damage he could be doing to them.
First it was the blacks, then women, people of other faiths, even singles and now the LBGT What happens when the LBGT issue is no longer an issue? Who’s next on the list? People who work on the Sabbath?
It takes all types, all kinds of people to make this world what it is. And instead of harping for uniformity, embrace the diversity of the global village. Forcing uniformity on others is really just repression.
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I can’t be bothered to read all the nonsense defending something not natural. I’m not gay hater – I just think it’s not natural. I accept gays, but I also hope gays accept us that we do not agree with their ways and stop forcing us to accept them. If they think they have rights as gays, they should accept that we have our straight rights and that acceptance should be bi-directional, not just us the straights accepting them.
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andrew leung on Wed, 24th Feb 2010 5:25 pm
protest on Wed, 24th Feb 2010 5:36 pm
Harry TomDick on Wed, 24th Feb 2010 5:56 pm
Guys – sorry. Here are some clarifications:
I had a Catholic education and I am quite familiar with the Bible. Yes, “Render unto Ceasr….” quote is about taxes. I included this quote just to hi-light that even Jesus acknowledges the rights of others and in this discussion, the rights of the LGBTs. Christians are most vocal in the debate.
And I am not bring religious percepts into the discussion.
I had a header in my article but it had been excluded. It reads as follows :
“I would like to declare at the onset that I am NOT in the Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals & Trans-genders (LGBT) group.
I do not believe in a god or a life-after death.
I am a liberal and what I write are only my thinking and I speak for no one nor any group(s).
I am also not a health profession but only a slightly better-read individual.
Please note that this article is primarily aimed at stimulating discussions and NOT to promote anger and hate.”
I think contributors should not shoot the messenger but to look at the message. My point is simple:
“THE LGBTs TOO HAVE A RIGHT TO LIFE. WE SHOULD NOT TREAT THEM DIFFERENTLY. IT IS WRONG OTHERWISE”
GGG on Wed, 24th Feb 2010 8:05 pm – Yes, Gays may be freaks. Call them what you like but you cannot deny them their rights to a peaceful existence like you and I. Got it?
And may I quote the Bible once again: “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.”
Thank you.
Richard Lu
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@ Solo Bear on Wed, 24th Feb 2010 6:10 pm
Solo Bear wrote : ” A VOTE was taken by the American Psychiatric Association to declassify homosexuality as a disorder. More of that in detail here. http://bit.ly/dCAIe8 There’s no scientific backup to support homo is not an abnormality.
Imagine a group of doctors gathering to vote an ailment not an ailment.”
Hello, SOLO-BEAR, do you know that American Psychaitric Association (APA) is the Exit-examiners for all psychiatrist-in-training in USA ?? Meaning, once you pass their exit exam, you are a full fledge psychiatrist , and the liscence is for the entire USA.
If you are also not informed, APA had sent examiners for Singapore M.Med (Psy) exam,
In singapore, we practice a entrance exam, M.Med (Psy) part I and II qualify you to be a basic specialist, (this is called BST). After the exam, they can be registrar and senior registrar.
Singapore Government also sent our basic specialist for AST (under HMDP) to APA to received advance training. After which, they can be consultant and senior consultant.
If you think APA can be bullied into changing their stance, then why would Singapore Government accept APA as a world authority.
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@ GoingAUSoon on Wed, 24th Feb 2010 9:56 pm
You wrote : ” I can’t be bothered to read all the nonsense defending something not natural. I’m not gay hater – I just think it’s not natural. ……”
Hello, you need not read, but at least dont spread lies, and dont tell lies.
The medical and scientific communities had declared “HOMOSEXUALITY IS NORMAL ” the decision was made in 1973 by American Psychaitric Association, and more and more national (including Singapore MOH) and international (including WHO) had accepted the decision, and this is a fact.
Please dont lie, beware, be aware, you will be judged under the 10th commandment.
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Classic case of tyranny of the majority against the rights of a minority select segment in society.
Religion happens to be the reason for most conflicts and much hatred in the world…
Rony tan does not OWN God, and how dare he purport to speak for god in this matter…. isn’t god for love? seems like alot of hatred has been generated by rony tan here.
fyi…i am a straight family man.
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GoingAuSoon
“I accept gays, but I also hope gays accept us that we do not agree with their ways and stop forcing us to accept them.”
Err i think you got to make up your mind first.
If you guys did accept LBGT, stop all the harassment and you wont hear a peep from the gay community. All this discourse is happening cos someone chose to publicize his superior morality by chastising other people.
And i certainly dun think hate is a natural. Look at children – they dun hate; the trust everyone and everything in their naive innocence.
Hate is taught, cultivated and nurtured to disastrous consequences. So lets be natural and not hate shall we?
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CitizenofSG:”If you want to debate about homosexual debate, you can go ahead, why do you want to drag Pastor Rony’s name with it”
YOU MUST BE A BRAIN-WASHED RONY TAN CRONY.. HE IS THE ONE WHO STIRRED THE S**T BY CONDEMNING GAYS (WHO ARE BORN SUCH. PERIOD) BY COMPARING THEM TO ANIMALS, MONKEYS ETC. AND YOU HAVE THE GALL TO ASK REVIEWERS NOT TO “DRAG RONY’S NAME WITH IT”!
A FORUM IS AN EXCELLENT PLATFORM FOR DISCUSSION/DEBATE.. BUT PLEASE USE INTELLIGENT REASONS AND NOT DOGMAS AND/OR ABSOLUTES WHICH ONLY YOUR EXCLUSIVE SECT BELIEVES IN! RELIGIOUS FANATICS LIKE RONY TAN ARE VERY DANGEROUS TO THE HARMONY IN MULTI-ETHNIC, MULTI-RELIGIOUS & MULTI-CULTURAL S’PORE…
ISD MUST WATCH HIM CLOSELY.. VERY CLOSELY.
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>@protest on Wed, 24th Feb 2010 9:14 pm
>
>
Okay, okay, I am sorry I over-reacted.
I am really very pissed off whenever people quote the bible, especially when they are losing an argument (I don’t mean you).
Please don’t take it too personal.
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Just like any group of people, as long as Gays contribute to the society, I’m fine with it.
Though, I’m concerned with the special standards that Gays want to be treated with. Amusing though, if you have any negative opinion about them, you are branded a homophobic.
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@notconvinced
>>rony makes his statement with a real person to back him up with personal stories and u still call it a lie. that shows what kind of an insecure people homosexuals are.
You are completely missing the point. You want testimony from an ex-Christian? I can give one.
His remarks smirks of bigotry and he (mis)used the pulpit to spread his homophobic views like gospel truth.
He cannot talk about gay people without being fixated on “homosexual behavior”, in which they dehumanized into purely a sexual act, instead of responsible people who pay taxes, vote, and are contributing members in the communities.
His guilt-by-association is mind boggling, and take blanket associations to the extreme. (Why, look at the testimony of the “ex-lesbian”!) Somehow, homosexuals must have been abused at young, have had troubled childhoods and are now pedophiles and into bestiality as well.
He classifies sexual orientation as a “lifestyle choice” but considers his own heterosexual lifestyle normal and therefore not a choice shows how dismissive and intolerant he is.
If homosexuality is *really* a choice, we might as well proclaim it as a religion! After all, religion is a choice, and yet that is protected by our laws.
By becoming a religion “Christian” laws against homosexuals would become unenforceable and gay people can enjoy equal rights without being subject to continual discrimination!
If you’re not just some drive-by hater, please tell me: What does your personal feeling about gay people in general have to do with their rights?
Why should you have a right to make decisions for them that they are not allowed to make for you?
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Concur with Naturelover that the smirky face Rony Tan is a very dangerous religious bigot, despite his “apology” to the gracious Buddhist & Taoist leaders. If one watches his evangelistic videos closely, listen to his derogatory/disparaging remarks, one realises that he is anti-religious harmony. And now he is rocking the peaceful Singapore boat by calling the naturally- born gays “monkeys”.
Rony Tan, please leave S’pore.. then racial & religious harmony would be several notches higher!
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@joshuatree:
You gotta be kidding when you said: “Just like any group of people, as long as Gays contribute to the society, I’m fine with it. Though, I’m concerned with the special standards that Gays want to be treated with.”
1. Gays have always been contributing to society since the beginning of days. But even if someone did not, are you saying we should just incarcerate or execute them?
2. They just want to be treated like EVERYONE else. They’re not asking for special standards. Right now they’re just asking not to be called paedophiles and zoophiles.
s i g h.
it’s depressing talking in here.
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@ joshuatree on Wed, 24th Feb 2010 10:22 pm
Just like any group of people, as long as Christians contribute to the society and dont criticise other people, I’m fine with it.
Though, I’m concerned with the special standards that Christians want to be treated with. Amusing though, if you have any negative opinion about them, you are branded a heretics.
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@ joshuatree on Wed, 24th Feb 2010 10:22 pm
Just like any group of people, as long as Christians contribute to the society and dont criticise other people, I’m fine with it.
Though, I’m concerned with the special standards that Christians want to be treated with.
Amusing though, they seems to have special rights to condemn other people, and if you happen to have any different (and not necessarily negative) opinion about them, you are branded a heretics.
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we have ultra conservatives that probably thinks girls in bikinis are bad. what do you expect.
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This hypocritical pastor is rather divisive and using scriptures to defend and espouse his bigotry lar.
If he was really religious – he would not be commenting or critizing gays/lesbians or whatever one chooses to be.
Beware! This is a dangerous man cos he is using the cloak of religiosity to hide the politican he is.
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if rony is wrong, then singapore govt should
1 – allow same sex marriage / divorce
2 – allow gay couples to buy HDB
3 – allow gay couples to adopt children
4 – allow gay couples to use medisave for each other
5 – allow ……
rony tan is but a convenient scapegoat for the pro-gay camp. your real grouse is with the govt.
be brave – go petition your MPs to change this into law. quote all the scientific facts that this is ‘normal’, and i’m sure …. if it holds water – you will get your wish.
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Seriously, Rony Tan will make a good counsellor to the thousands of gay priests (many of them are paedophiles) in Europe and USA, including the infamous disgraced televangelist Ted Haggard.
At least he will be talking to like-minded people in their closed communities.
In multi-racial & multi-faith S’pore, Rony Tan must consciously be aware of the fact that our govt frowns upon “enclaves of the like-minded” and promotes open communities and the building of a cohesive society.
Thus, the eloquent senior pastor, instead of hiding in his own exclusive enclave & indulging in religious chicanery or mockeries, should instead contribute to the harmony of S’pore by conducting talks/seminars at organisations like Community Engagement Programmes or Inter-Religious Harmony circles.
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Before anyone start harping on the fallacy regarding gay parents breeding gay child, IT IS UNPROVEN.
On the contrary, gay parents might even make better parents. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_parents ”
Actually, the American Psychiatric Association had released a position statement in 2002.
http://www.psych.org/Departments/EDU/Library/APAOfficialDocumentsandRelated/PositionStatements/200214.aspx
Adoption and Co-parenting of Children by Same-sex Couples
Numerous studies over the last three decades consistently demonstrate that children raised by gay or lesbian parents exhibit the same level of emotional, cognitive, social, and sexual functioning as children raised by heterosexual parents.
This research indicates that optimal development for children is based not on the sexual orientation of the parents, but on stable attachments to committed and nurturing adults.
The research also shows that children who have two parents, regardless of the parents’ sexual orientations, do better than children with only one parent.
The American Psychiatric Association supports initiatives which allow same-sex couples to adopt and co-parent children and supports all the associated legal rights, benefits, and responsibilities which arise from such initiatives.
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@wat
girls in bikini ARE bad. by using less cloth they aren’t supporting the garment industry.
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Richard Lu: “I choose not to delve into religion.”
Hmm ….. is that a mis-statement? I see religion mentioned so many times. Also, isn’t Rony’s view on homosexuality from the religion point?
///Section 377A (”Outrages on decency”) states that: “Any male person who, in public or private, commits, or abets the commission of, or procures or attempts to procure the commission by any male person of, any act of gross indecency with another male person, shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to 2 years.”///
This section specifically mention male person, so (female person) lesbian is excluded. Was act of gross indecency defined? Rony’s interview was with a ‘confessed’ lesbian. Did Rony say it was ‘illegal’?
Technically, it is not correct to lump Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender (GLBT) as one. Gay & lesbian are homosexuals, the others are not. The debate is about homosexuality – same gender attraction and sexual act (if any) cannot be ‘intercourse’ as between opposite sex organs. It does require any imagination to conclude that ‘act of gross indecency’ between gays has to be oral and/or anal sex. It would appear that in Section 377A, any ‘act of gross indecency’ is confined to male-male persons. For lesbians and heterosexuals neither oral nor anal sex is an act of gross indecency. What a contradiction!
Richard said: “Many Jewish and Christian leaders, however, have gone to great lengths to stress that it is the homosexual acts and not the homosexual individuals or their ‘orientation’ that is condemned.”
In other words, homosexual acts are ‘gross indecency’ as in Section 377A. These acts are to be condemned, i.e. the homosexual acts are burn in hell not the homosexuals!
It would seem like homosexuals and their acts are mutually exclusive. I find Christian logic hard to fathom.
Also, Richard said “The Christians in Singapore are by nature conservative and many are vocal and regard same-sex behavior as profoundly immoral and hated by God regardless of the nature of their relationships. Most advocate continuing the current denials and restrictions.”
Only Christians are conservative? Why are other conservatives not against homosexuals?
What then is the discrimination, hatred, phobia, condemnation against homosexuals about? The simple answer is: the bible say! Its religion after all, Richard.
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that same ultraconservatives that think world is created in 6 days.
On the first day, God created light and darkness (GE 1:3-5).
The sun was created on the 4th day (GE 1:14-19).
And dont forget how is it possible that the plants were created on the third day, when we know that photosynthesis requires the sun, which was not created until the 4th.
That’s from the same book that claim it’s inerrant and homosexual are evil.
Go figure.
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http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2010/02/when-ex-gay-means-ex-con-narth-leader.html
http://www.southfloridagaynews.com/news/national-news/547-ex-gay-is-ex-con.html
Narth leader turns out to be a convicted scam artist.
~~
the inside scoop on ex gay conversion therapy
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/the-exgay-files-the-bizarre-world-of-gaytostraight-conversion-1884947.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/feb/09/conversion-therapy-homosexuality
http://www.queerty.com/listen-patrick-strudwick-exposed-the-tricks-of-ex-gay-therapy-now-hes-really-going-after-them-20100218/
~~
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@Richard Lu: “I choose not to delve into religion.”
Hmm ….. is that a mis-statement? I see religion mentioned so many times. Also, isn’t Rony’s view on homosexuality from the religion point?
///Section 377A (”Outrages on decency”) states that: “Any male person who, in public or private, commits, or abets the commission of, or procures or attempts to procure the commission by any male person of, any act of gross indecency with another male person, shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to 2 years.”///
This section specifically mention male person, so (female person) lesbian is excluded. Was act of gross indecency defined? Rony’s interview was with a ‘confessed’ lesbian. Did Rony say it was ‘illegal’?
Technically, it is not correct to lump Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender (GLBT) as one. Gay & lesbian are homosexuals, the others are not. The debate is about homosexuality – same gender attraction and sexual act (if any) cannot be ‘intercourse’ as between opposite sex organs. It does require any imagination to conclude that ‘act of gross indecency’ between gays has to be oral and/or anal sex. It would appear that in Section 377A, any ‘act of gross indecency’ is confined to male-male persons. For lesbians and heterosexuals neither oral nor anal sex is an act of gross indecency. What a contradiction!
Richard said: “Many Jewish and Christian leaders, however, have gone to great lengths to stress that it is the homosexual acts and not the homosexual individuals or their ‘orientation’ that is condemned.”
In other words, homosexual acts are ‘gross indecency’ as in Section 377A. These acts are to be condemned, i.e. the homosexual acts are burn in hell not the homosexuals!
It would seem like homosexuals and their acts are mutually exclusive. I find Christian logic hard to fathom.
Also, Richard said “The Christians in Singapore are by nature conservative and many are vocal and regard same-sex behavior as profoundly immoral and hated by God regardless of the nature of their relationships. Most advocate continuing the current denials and restrictions.”
Only Christians are conservative? Why are other conservatives not against homosexuals?
What then is the discrimination, hatred, phobia, condemnation against homosexuals about? The simple answer is: the bible say! It is religion after all, Richard.
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Hey Guys! I Stumbled On the Site By accident when searching for some information on Lighthouse Evan. it found it weird how you guys commented on the Verse this guy[who wrote this article quoted]. I, being a christian, know that the bible is pure and hole and all that. But at times the bible is unclear… and leaving us humans to make several assumptions, we can’t say that what he assumes is wrong. unless having evidence. Yet, i do agree he shouldn’t have quoted. Bring Religion Into this was a big mistake. But it might eventually happen… now in Singapore i don’t know there are many gay man… or woman for that matter. But the minority, i do believe, deserves a voice… But there has to be limits of course. Totally restricting gay people from Singapore is out of the question that’s for sure. I don’t know any gay people but i do think the Singaporeans have to have an open mind about this topic. it’s indeed a fragile one that hasn’t been brought up in a long time. I’m surprised it was just brought up yesterday! Coming back to the topic, i have to admit that i have no objections to them hugging or maybe a light kiss in public. It will be alittle weird. but i might get over it. The writer of the article above said that PM Lee Said that Gay men will be allowed to live thier lives in private. i didn’t know that but if that’s true, i do believe that it’s a step up… no one really addresses the gay issue in Singapore mainly because we are small enough. it’s not like the gay people will overthrow the government and what not. What i’m trying to say is just have an open mind… We Choose what we choose to believe… As Christians, most understandings is that God doesn’t approve(?)[I'm not sure if it's the right term to use] of homosexuality. and yet there are others who is open about it. What is you are a christian and your son or daughter tells you he/she is gay? How are you to react? I Surely don’t know… And you know why that is so? like i mentioned before, singapore doesn’t address the gay issue to a huge end. We rarely even think about the word gay for that matter(well unless you are one yourself) As such, we don’t get ourselves prepared for it. Let alone make it as one of the possibility when your son/daughter or a friend is showing the signs. I have no experience in this area so i really can’t say much without absolute certainty.
But just one thing about gays i just realise and find it very sad. Imagine yourself a gay man. Living in Singapore. 23Years old. Attractive. Good Build. Woman throw themselves all over you. But you just can’t find that one person to settle down with. [I'm a guy so naturally i take a guys point of view, but if you are woman you take the woman's point of view then] I know that i would be very sad if i couldn’t have the woman the i love. I’m not saying that we should let them get married and all but i do believe that we should let them have a love life too… it’s gonna be very hard for them now. it’s like 1 in a million to meet every another gay person in this country. Good luck guys.
Wow! i’ve said a bunch load! haha… sorry… i wrote this at 12:30 in the morning after finishing biology homework i’m kind of in the mood to talk ALOT! Anyways, like i said, i have no connection to even one of the gay people in singapore so my words may be some what off based. and i do apologise if that is happens… But no matter what happens in the future, i don’t think i’ll discriminate or try to change a gay person if i ever meet one to become straight. They are what they are. and what they are is HUMAN. we are all Human. we have our flaws. but i didn’t say being gay is a flaw. i think it’s just who you are. who you developed into, conciously or unconciously still the same… I know i would not change myself to fit in with people… I mean like. i wouldn’t keep listening to Japanese songs just because all my friends listen to them when i love western and european music. This is true btw. It’s who i am, a western/European Music Lover. i would force myself to LOVE Japanese music just because my friends love them i always feel left out with they talk about it… i know the gay thing is way more dense than music… *sigh* i can’t think of a better example… my bad.. haha. I’m off to bed now… i think i’ll just stay on neutral grounds… i’m just too young to decide on a side just yet.
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@ingin Tan on Wed, 24th Feb 2010 8:56 pm
(quote) Richard brought RT into the picture because RT insisted on demonising lgbt and incite hatred towards these people and insist he has the right to do this. We would soon not hear anymore of the biggest bigot RT. If you want to support him that is your right.(unquote)
Richard is lending the infamy of Rony Tan to further the cause of the gay. By dragging Rony Tan name in an article that has little to do with what Rony is doing, what is the purpose. It is for the sake of promoting readership that is all. If he wants to become a gay openly, just say he wants to be gay and he has every right to be one, who is stopping him. Just don’t drag someone who is totally gone off the picture and by bringing him back out of the blue is nothing but sinister.
(quote)1.Do the lgbt has a right in this society? Does society
has a right to penalise them just because they are different? Are they human beings? Are they contributing to society?(unquote)
Go and ask PAP for all the right and they can decide, the faith has nothing to do with it except to advise its own believer.
(quote)2.Do their public activities treatened society? If so how? If their public activities are not acceptable as our society’s social norm then they can be conscribe by
law or policy but shouldn’t they have right to their
private activities just like any other person whose
private activities are not necessary judged by society as wholesome. Shouldn’t 377A be amended?(unquote)
Everyday people sin and do bad things, Christian will go around to advise but has no right to enforce anything or anyone not to sin or being immoral. Any law to amend please call your PAP government please don’t drag religion into your argument.
By the way an underage gal sleeping with an overage man willingly also never threaten society and it is also their private activities, please go and tell PAP why they want to bother. Whatever rules and amendment please go and tell PAP who is your government.
(quote)All the prejudice and hatred initiated by bigots like RT especially when he uses the cover of ‘love’ is against
anyone’s sense of justice.(unquote)
Rony mistakes is speaking about other religion, please don’t take advantage and speak against him about other issues where he has the freedom of speech just like anyone. Talking about bigot, I hope I have a mirror that is big enough that can give you a peep who is right inside it so that you can have a clearer picture.
(quote)Everyone has preferences and a right to their prejudices but to incite hatred towards any section of society is wrong if not criminal.(unquote)
It looks like Richard is well aware that people hate Rony, he is inciting people like you to become so worked up. He is inciting hatred to Christian at large because quite a few of us is in line with Rony in thought and teachings. Gay is not pro creation and it threatens the world to extinction if it is going to be allowed to be part of main stream.
(quote)I am not pro lgbt but as long as their activities do not
threaten society they should not be censured or discriminated.(unquote)
Speaking as a church leader and to its own people, Rony is not persecuting anyone. Did he instigate people to go and arrest gays and such and hang them to the stake? If you can censure and discriminate against Rony, why are you speaking so loudly about others not being able to do the same just because they are religious leader.
(quote)Personally I am against gay marriages because it has
so many ramifications on the society at large but that
does not mean I should censure or discriminate against
gays or lesbians as persons. It is not a contradiction.(unquote)
If you know there are ramification and you refuse to lift a hand to correct things and at the same time disallow others to do so, you are more than contradicting. You are neglecting your basic responsibility as a human being.
Should I not interfere if I see your daughter or your gal friend, wife or mother, even your gay friend being gang raped by some hooligans. Should I say that is your daughter, gal, wife or mother or gay friend and it has nothing to do with me and I should not bother or speak out against this bloody hooligans. As a god loving person I might even risk my life to save these people of yours whom I personally may not even know or acquainted.
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notconvinced on Wed, 24th Feb 2010 9:31 pm
“what pastor rony said isnt wrong. and he based what he says on the confession of a lady. unless ur trying to say the lady is lying? he makes it clear that there are ppl out there who are genuinenly gay and then there are ppl who get influenced into homosexuality. what’s wrong with that? just bcos u dont like it doesnt mean its not true. it is true. and u open ur eyes and listen to the stories of the ppl and u’ll know it.”
And just becos you only like to hear what you want to hear dosn’t mean its true.
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Richard Lu: “I choose not to delve into religion.”
Hmm ….. is that a mis-statement? I see religion mentioned so many times. Also, isn’t Rony’s view on homosexuality from the religion point?
///Section 377A (”Outrages on decency”) states that: “Any male person who, in public or private, commits, or abets the commission of, or procures or attempts to procure the commission by any male person of, any act of gross indecency with another male person, shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to 2 years.”///
This section specifically mention male person, so (female person) lesbian is excluded. Was act of gross indecency defined? Rony’s interview was with a ‘confessed’ lesbian. Did Rony say it was ‘illegal’?
Technically, it is not correct to lump Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender (GLBT) as one. Gay & lesbian are homosexuals, the others are not. The debate is about homosexuality – same gender attraction and sexual act (if any) cannot be ‘intercourse’ as between opposite sex organs. It does require any imagination to conclude that ‘act of gross indecency’ between gays has to be oral and/or anal sex. It would appear that in Section 377A, any ‘act of gross indecency’ is confined to male-male persons. For lesbians and heterosexuals neither oral nor anal sex is an act of gross indecency. What a contradiction!
Richard said: “Many Jewish and Christian leaders, however, have gone to great lengths to stress that it is the homosexual acts and not the homosexual individuals or their ‘orientation’ that is condemned.”
In other words, homosexual acts are ‘gross indecency’ as in Section 377A. These acts are to be condemned, i.e. the homosexual acts are burn in hell not the homosexuals!
It would seem like homosexuals and their acts are mutually exclusive. I find Christian logic hard to fathom.
Also, Richard said “The Christians in Singapore are by nature conservative and many are vocal and regard same-sex behavior as profoundly immoral and hated by God regardless of the nature of their relationships. Most advocate continuing the current denials and restrictions.”
Only Christians are conservative? Why are other conservatives not against homosexuals?
What then is the discrimination, hatred, phobia, condemnation against homosexuals about? The simple answer is: the bible say! It is religion after all, Richard.
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That one Bible verse has totally brought out the fundies hasn’t it?
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Kenz
On the first day, God created light and darkness (GE 1:3-5).
The sun was created on the 4th day (GE 1:14-19).
And don’t forget how is it possible that the plants were created on the third day, when we know that photosynthesis requires the sun, which was not created until the 4th.
This is one of the most idiotic way to refute the bible. If He can create the universe, this infer he can make something out of nothing. Why didn’t you claim that he violates the scientific principle that energy/matter cannot be created or destroyed ?
So … assuming he can make the Sun, Moon, Stars : BUT he cannot make plants grow without sunlight ?
If you are out to hunt for inaccuracies/contradictions etc, certainly you can do better than that. Do more googling – it will do you some good. Good try, but NEXT !!!
Btw, the bible is not a science book – but I guess that is lost on ’scientific’ minds like yours.
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You people opposing gay marriage are not thinking. Because gay people cannot be openly gay, some are force into unwanted marriages and have biological kids. Therefore, gay gene gets propagated to the next generation.
I know, it’s counter-intuitive.
Please be smart and let gay people marry each other. Before too long the gay gene will go extinct because these same sex parents cannot have biological kids.
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@Richard Lu: “I choose not to delve into religion.”
Hmm ….. is that a mis-statement? I see religion mentioned so many times. Also, isn’t Rony’s view on homosexuality from the religion point?
///Section 377A (”Outrages on decency”) states that: “Any male person who, in public or private, commits, or abets the commission of, or procures or attempts to procure the commission by any male person of, any act of gross indecency with another male person, shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to 2 years.”///
This section does not define act of gross indecency but specifically mention male person, so (female person) lesbian is excluded. Rony’s interview was with a ‘confessed’ lesbian. And lesbianism is not ‘illegal’ or a crime under the Penal Code, else this lesbian will also be jailed for the offence apart from drug-addiction.
Technically, it is not correct to lump Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender (GLBT) as one. Gay & lesbian are homosexuals, the others are not. The debate is about homosexuality – same gender attraction and sexual act (if any) cannot be ‘intercourse’ as between opposite sex organs.
Let’s get this ‘straight’: same-gender attraction is not unusual or un-natural. Going by account in Genesis, Creator God created Adam (male?). He created Eve (female?) because Adam was bored? If he had created another Adam (Steve?) maybe there will be no such thing as heterosexual! And the two would live happily ever after forever in the Garden of Eden.
Next, homosexual act may not necessarily be part of homosexuality. It does require any imagination to conclude that such act (if any) has to be oral and/or anal sex. It would appear that in Section 377A, any ‘act of gross indecency’ is confined to male-male persons. For lesbians and heterosexuals neither oral nor anal sex is an act of gross indecency. What a contradiction! Gay is Wrong. Lesbian, Heterosexual and Bisexual are OK.
Pastor Rony said that Christians are not against homosexuals but against homosexual acts. And Richard said: “Many Jewish and Christian leaders, however, have gone to great lengths to stress that it is the homosexual acts and not the homosexual individuals or their ‘orientation’ that is condemned.”
I cannot follow the logic. What both Rony and Richard are saying is that homosexual acts are burn in hell NOT homosexuals! It would seem like homosexuals and their acts are mutually exclusive. The acts can be commissioned by themselves without the male-male persons! Who goes to jail under Section 377A – anal sex or the homosexual individual?
Also, Richard said “The Christians in Singapore are by nature conservative and many are vocal and regard same-sex behavior as profoundly immoral and hated by God regardless of the nature of their relationships. Most advocate continuing the current denials and restrictions.”
Wow, only Christians are conservative! Why are other conservatives not against homosexuals?
What then is the discrimination, hatred, phobia, prejudice, condemnation against homosexuals ALL about? The simple answer is: the bible say! It is religion after all, Richard.
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Kenz, how to measure days when there is no ‘day and night’ to measure before creation?
citizenSG
Forget religion and don’t imagine anyone attacking christianity , Richard Lu certainly did not, unless you are so blinded by your prejudice you are not willing to examine what he wrote. Listen to yourself and look into the mirror and honestly ask yourself whether you are capable of reasoning and logic outside your own mindset.
Go see the video again and ask a truly independent third
party you trust whether RT did generate fear and hate of
lgbt in the cloak of ‘religious love’? But if you do not
wish to do that don’t smear others of the very prejudices
that you hold.
peace be with you.
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“So … assuming he can make the Sun, Moon, Stars : BUT he cannot make plants grow without sunlight ?”
So can we also assume he can create homosexual?
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Huh?? on Thu, 25th Feb 2010 2:49 pm
So … assuming he can make the Sun, Moon, Stars : BUT he cannot make plants grow without sunlight ?
If you are out to hunt for inaccuracies/contradictions etc, certainly you can do better than that. Do more googling – it will do you some good. Good try, but NEXT !!!
Btw, the bible is not a science book – but I guess that is lost on ’scientific’ minds like yours.
—-
Dear Huh??
Huhh indeed. It is people like you who are using the bible as a textbook and science book for everything in life.
So what does this mean, you can use specific section of the bible as textbook but not the rest? so convenient.
and Actor, “And just becos you only like to hear what you want to hear dosn’t mean its true.” you are referring to yourself I guess.
Regarding testimonials, well, we have testimonies from ex-gay, ex-christian, ex-budhist. Does it mean all of them are false?
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@Actor
so ur defence so far is that, the lady is acting and everyone who listens to her are just listening to what they like to hear.
thanks. that makes no more sense then what u’ve accused me of.
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Pastor Rony Tan,
We know that you are UNTOUCHABLE.
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The churches are silent, Part I
http://kennethism.com/2010/02/23/tan-tarn-how-the-churches-are-silent/
The churches are silent, Part II
http://kennethism.com/2010/02/24/the-churches-are-silent-ctd/
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{Richard Lu wrote: ” Many Jewish and Christian leaders, however, have gone to great lengths to stress that it is the homosexual acts and not the homosexual individuals or their “orientation” that is condemned.”}
=======================================================
WE ARE TO “LOVE THE SINNER, AND HATE THE SIN (ESPECIALLY THOSE INSIDE OURSELVES)”
I am getting tiredn with having to be constantly engaged on this topic. It seems to be never-ebding. Before I take my break, let me put in this post—-hopefully my last one in TR.
Writer Mr Richard Lu is quite right say Christians (and Jews) are more concerned with the homosexual act (especially for gays) rather than the person indulging in it. The act is senseless, sordid and so is repulsive, not the individual. But their insecurity and paranoia can make the homos repulsive characters. So they must not be shooting at their own feet, and avoid being so unreasonably demanding.
To this day, gays have yet to tell us how good and great copulating the stinking muck in someone’s dark is? And how it can help PM Lee build for us a great, enlightened and a caring and sharing society?
I do agree with Pastor Rony Tan that Christians are not to ostracise and discriminate the homosexuals. If we can help them, we should—-and must—-help them succeed in life and encouage them so that they can make their contributions to Singapore. In this way, they can find meaning and happiness in life.
In short, we are to “Love the sinner, and hate the sin (especially those inside ourselves).”
At the most, we must never allow the homos the untrammeled freedom to organise themselves politically and evangelise their ideology so that they can grow their numerical strength to unmanageable proportion. When this happens, they can then cause us a lot of troubles and put pressures on our society—-to damage our fragile social and religious harmony, with their unreasonable demands and their intolerantly and rabidly atheistic political beliefs.
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Anti-gay extremists wants everyone to know that they are the LAST & ONLY authority on what is accepted by them, pleasing to them. They want to tell GLBT what they are and who they are & that;
a) They are not borne but acquired in their sexual inclination.
b) They (GLBT) CANNOT LOVE another human being of their own free choice and to spend their entire lives celibate & alone.
c) They (GLBT) are criminals for just being their way.
d) They (GLBT) are immoral, disgusting, going to hell..(keep adding) etc
e) They (GLBT) are not human beings, worse than animals, many insist!
f) They (GLBT) are molesters, pedophiles, recruiters of new gay members.
g) Their (GLBT) sexual acts are evil, non-procreating, disease bearing..etc
f)………blah, blah, blah.
Now replace/insert STRAIGHT over GLBT for all these HATRED/JUDGEMENT/CONDEMNATIONS, and see how these “st8 as an arrow, moral as a pharaoh” people will react if they were the receiving end & to be treated exactly the same way.
Answer:
They DON”T freaking care one bit cos it’s NEVER about logic, tolerance, respect, equality…(I don’t even dare add “LOVE”). Their consuming HATRED is about BULLYING, DISCRIMINATION & SUPERIORITY. It’s empowering for them to feel that way. Second nature-period. Try reasoning with the insecure school bully, duh…no brainer!
There’s NEVER any need for GLBT worldwide to seek the approval or understanding of retards/bigots. It’s a never ending battle. One day, these hateful groups will be destroyed by the very darkness that has consumed them already. They hide behind their so called faith and wreak havoc on others and they seriously expect to go to their “heaven”. Scary!
It’s unfortunate that the backward mentality is wide open for the world to see. But then again, this is Singapore, nothing is surprising, given so “much” wrongs are swept under the oppressive system. This system in turn, breeds predators.
PS: Humour everyone further then, anti-gay retards. If anal sex were so so immoral, bad, evil, non-procreating and disease-bearing..etc…why then why didn’t you “moral” hypocrites stage a public/private protest to the government when the clearly double-standard S377A legalised sodomy between man & woman.
Surely you would not say that the behinds of your grandmother, mother, wife, sister, daughter & girlfriend, are made of stainless steel to be more tolerant of your demented abuse, so it’s perfectly ok right?
Hmmm, but then again, I would be surprised if you didn’t go that low again. Surprise me.
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Temasek Review, you should change your slogan from
Voice of Singaporeans to Voice of Gays.
You are just another facade for gays to hide in, like that AWARE.
Shame on you…
You really do not understand what mainstream singaporean wants.
We DO NOT WANT GAYS ACTIVISM !!!
We do not need you gays to tech that ANAL sex is healthy to our Children!!!
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This link tells a very compelling argument about LGBT relations.
As for Rony, it’s clear that what he is saying is something that the Abrahamaic religions view as sin.
But, we are at a period where the issue of homosexuality takes precedence over love, compassion, family, care and overall healthy, meaningful and healthy lifestyle when clearly the latters can be as easily achieved in a homosexual life and a heterosexual life. It’s just sad.
That’s why organized religion is for yuppies.
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oops here’s the link.
http://wherebearsroamfree.blogspot.com/2010/02/another-pandoras-box-gays-testing-out.html
remember when reading, please focus on the issue of the article.
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GetReal on Thu, 25th Feb 2010 6:13 pm
“We do not need you gays to tech that ANAL sex is healthy to our Children!!!”
Heaven forbid! GLBT has NO interest in teaching anyone anything which is private between 2 consenting mature adults.
Retards and die hard bigots like you will only allow the government and the ex-AWARE Feminist Mentor to show you the LEGAL S377Ass way to sodomise your own Children!!!
Wow, you moved to your children so fast already? Gee…you are one disgusting pedophile! What happened to the comfort fit of your wife? Got upsized too fast by your spiraling ignorance?
We DO NOT WANT ACTIVE RETARDS !!!
Zzzz
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Wakka wrote : ” Anyway, before anyone start harping on the fallacy regarding gay parents breeding gay child, IT IS UNPROVEN. On the contrary, gay parents might even make better parents. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_parents ”
I refer the readers to the position statement of American Psychiatric Association in 2002.
POSITION STATEMENT of American Psychiatric Association in 2002 regarding
“Adoption and Co-parenting of Children by Same-sex Couples”
http://www.psych.org/Departments/EDU/Library/APAOfficialDocumentsandRelated/PositionStatements/200214.aspx
Numerous studies over the last three decades consistently demonstrate that children raised by gay or lesbian parents exhibit the same level of emotional, cognitive, social, and sexual functioning as children raised by heterosexual parents.
This research indicates that optimal development for children is based not on the sexual orientation of the parents, but on stable attachments to committed and nurturing adults.
The research also shows that children who have two parents, regardless of the parents’ sexual orientations, do better than children with only one parent.
While some states have approved legislation sanctioning second parent adoption, other court judgments and legislation have prohibited lesbian women and gay men from adopting or co-parenting.
Therefore, in most of the United States, only one partner in a committed gay or lesbian couple may have a legal parental relationship to a child they are raising together.
Adoption by a second parent, however, would not only formalize a child’s existing relationships with both parents in a same-sex couple, it would also provide vital security for the child.
Children could avail themselves of both parents’ health insurance benefits, access to medical care, death benefits, inheritance rights, and child support from both parents in the event of separation. Adoption protects both parents’ rights to custody and/or visitation if the couple separates or if one parent dies.
The American Psychiatric Association has historically supported equity, parity, and non-discrimination regarding legal issues affecting mental health.
In 2000, APA supported the legal recognition of same sex unions and their associated legal rights, benefits, and responsibilities.
APA has also supported efforts to educate the public about homosexuality and the mental health needs of lesbian women, gay men, and their families.
Removing legal barriers that adversely affect the emotional and physical health of children raised by lesbian and gay parents is consistent with the goals of the APA.
The American Psychiatric Association supports initiatives which allow same-sex couples to adopt and co-parent children and supports all the associated legal rights, benefits, and responsibilities which arise from such initiatives.
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■Ingin Tan
////Kenz, how to measure days when there is no ‘day and night’ to measure before creation?////
How the heck will I know? I didnt write the bible.
■Huh?? on Thu, 25th Feb 2010 2:49 pm
///This is one of the most idiotic way to refute the bible. If He can create the universe, this infer he can make something out of nothing. Why didn’t you claim that he violates the scientific principle that energy/matter cannot be created or destroyed ?///
How the heck do i know what you termed as scientific principle is the same as the rest of the world?
////So … assuming he can make the Sun, Moon, Stars : BUT he cannot make plants grow without sunlight ?////
Of course he can.
Mushroom/fungi can grow without light. Since i dont see any Great Amazon Mushroom Forest, so i am guessing you are right.
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Replying to…..Harry TomDick on 24th Feb@10:19pm,
Okies, I accept your apology. By and large, im quite a big-hearted person lah…Hehehe….
No hard feelings… No worries, buddy..hehehhe…
Have a gd day!
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Reply to Richard Lu@9:59pm,
You shld have censored that quote: ‘ Give it unto Ceasar….
But rather, you shld have instead usethe phrase which u have respond : Do it to others as you want others do it to you. Which i see it more deem fit in lining up with the article.
That will be more appropriate phrase , and it will not cause so much commotion by then now.
Do take note whenever putting up an article, read it thouroughly, edit it when it is necessary to avoid sensitive arguments in the cyberspace so that ppl will not be shooting one another in the cyberspace for no reason whatsoever cause….
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Are you gay, Richard Lu?
We don’t need gay activists like you in Singapore !
Get lost
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@ Huh?? on Wed, 24th Feb 2010 11:31 pm
if rony is wrong, then singapore govt should
1 – allow same sex marriage / divorce
2 – allow gay couples to buy HDB
3 – allow gay couples to adopt children
4 – allow gay couples to use medisave for each other
5 – allow ……
be brave – go petition your MPs to change this into law. quote all the scientific facts that this is ‘normal’, and i’m sure …. if it holds water – you will get your wish.
Yawn….. Old argument. Had the church had less blood on his hand ???
Science prevail. It takes time for science to prevail against superstitious, bigotry and ignorance.
Ever since Galileo discovered the scientific truth of a round earth, was not the argument being used again and again, as a futile attempt for the church to propogate untruth and unscientific ??
Try harder. Except, you cant burnt someone to death.
Ummmm…. burning people to death, is that science or barbarism??
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Alright, this whole shit is dumb. I’m not homosexual, but I do KNOW that homosexuality exists. Everyone does. It’s just there and not even your so called ‘God’ can extinguish that fire which everyone’s so hell-bent on putting out.
So who the hell are you to tell them to stop loving the same gender? They have their own life you have yours. Leave ‘em the hell alone. Homosexuality DOES exist, and you are not someone who can just barge into someone else’s life and tell him or her to stop.
No one can, not even God. You don’t need a reason.
Similarly, who are you to think that everyone loves mango? This world ain’t perfect. Look somewhere else and don’t start crapping words out from your mouth.
Disgusting to some, so what? It’s just THERE, goddamnit! You can’t accept that simple fact? Then pretend it doesn’t even exist!
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Opposition seems to be very very supportive of gays… Please state your stance and let your supporters know your stance clearly and avoid double-tongue speech.
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Is PAP supportive or anti-gay ???
Please state your stance and let your supporters and desenters know your stance clearly and avoid double-tongue speech.
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Pardon me, I still don’t get this: “Christians are not against homosexuals but against homosexual acts.” And OTE said: “Writer Mr Richard Lu is quite right say Christians (and Jews) are more concerned with the homosexual act (especially for gays) rather than the person indulging in it. The act is senseless, sordid and so is repulsive, not the individual.”
Commonsense tells me that homosexual acts must be acts performed or indulged by homosexuals. What are these? Since they have been described as sordid and repulsive I have to assume that homosexual acts refer to oral and/or anal sex. These acts are condemnable but not the individuals (performing/indulging). Based on this line of reasoning, two corollaries arise: (1) the acts can come about by themselves, and (2) do not require actor, performer, procurer, or commissioner. The actor and the act are separate. Without the actor, there is the act!
This somehow contradicts Section 377A: “Any male person who, in public or private, commits, or abets the commission of, or procures or attempts to procure the commission by any male person of, any act of gross indecency with another male person, shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to 2 years.”
Shouldn’t the act got to jail and not the homosexual?
Can someone help me reconcile this contradiction?
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a. citizenofSG on Wed, 24th Feb 2010 5:57 pm
Sorry but Pastor Rony Tan was mentioned because he started this great homosexuality debate.
Please read the article once again. You will find that Pastor Rony Tan has not been mentioned at all in it. The article was strictly about our attitudes to the LGBT.
I am not gay. Please see my comments Richard Lu on Wed, 24th Feb 2010 9:59 pm.
XXXXXXXXXX
b. aah-haa on Thu, 25th Feb 2010 3:31 pm
aah-haa on Thu, 25th Feb 2010 1:20 am
“I choose not to delve into religion” and I did not. My article is mainly about the liberals’ attitudes towards the LGBT group. Look at the big picture.
++
I agree that the discussion should focus on lesbians and gays.
++
337A pertains to homosexual acts or “same sex acts”. I understand that it was only later that the word “lesbian” was coined for same sex act / relationship between two women. I am not expert so please don’t quote me.
++
Christians are most vocally against LGBT. They proclaim “Love the Sinner. Hate the sins.” This is absolute nonsense, doublespeak. Imagine someone who is aggressive and uses foul language. Is it possible to love the person and hate his aggression and language? How do we separate the persona from the deed? How do courts of law dispense sentences otherwise?
++
Your question: “Wow, only Christians are conservative! Why are other conservatives not against homosexuals?
My reply: I did not say it. You did yet again. Please look at the big picture and extract the essence.
++
“These acts are to be condemned, i.e. the homosexual acts are burn in hell not the homosexuals!”
My reply: I did not say it. You did again.
++
“What both Rony and Richard are saying is that homosexual acts are burn in hell NOT homosexuals!”
My reply: I did not say it. You did yet again.I do not believe in a god or a after-life so no hell or heaven.
XXXXXXXXXX
c. GetReal on Thu, 25th Feb 2010 6:13 pm
TR is only the forum and please don’t shoot the messenger. TR is not about gay activism. Let’s not be facetious with our remarks.
The article certain was meant to stimulate discussion but not hate. Look at the article objectively.
XXXXXXXXXX
d. ingin Tan on Thu, 25th Feb 2010 3:52 pm
Sir, thank you..
XXXXXXXXXX
e. Spit on Thu, 25th Feb 2010 9:32 pm
Your question: : Are you gay, Richard Lu?
My answer : Categorically not.
Please see my comments Richard Lu on Wed, 24th Feb 2010 9:59 pm.
I am a liberal and my philosophy in life is to live and let live.
I contributed that article to show how in liberal democracies homophobia has diminished and Singaporeans speaks of democratizing. My next point is do we treat LGBT any lesser than anyone else?
Your statement: We don’t need gay activists like you in Singapore! Get lost.
Sorry but aren’t presumptuous and you are behaving like a spoil child? From your statements I surmise that you are anti-LBGT.
Allow me ask:
a. if you have a member in your family gay or lesbian inclined, do you love the person much less?
b. If you are a Christian, would you not let a lesbian or gay worship with you?
c. Would you have the same attitude (anti-gay) if the person is your fellow Christian from your church?
++++++++++
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a. citizenofSG on Wed, 24th Feb 2010 5:57 pm
Sorry but Pastor Rony Tan was mentioned because he started this great homosexuality debate.
Please read the article once again. You will find that Pastor Rony Tan has not been mentioned at all in it. The article was strictly about our attitudes to the LGBT.
I am not gay. Please see my comments Richard Lu on Wed, 24th Feb 2010 9:59 pm.
XXXXXXXXXX
b. aah-haa on Thu, 25th Feb 2010 3:31 pm
aah-haa on Thu, 25th Feb 2010 1:20 am
“I choose not to delve into religion” and I did not. My article is mainly about the liberals’ attitudes towards the LGBT group. Look at the big picture.
++
I agree that the discussion should focus on lesbians and gays.
++
337A pertains to homosexual acts or “same sex acts”. I understand that it was only later that the word “lesbian” was coined for same sex act / relationship between two women. I am not expert so please don’t quote me.
++
Christians are most vocally against LGBT. They proclaim “Love the Sinner. Hate the sins.” This is absolute nonsense, doublespeak. Imagine someone who is aggressive and uses foul language. Is it possible to love the person and hate his aggression and language? How do we separate the persona from the deed? How do courts of law dispense sentences otherwise?
++
Your question: “Wow, only Christians are conservative! Why are other conservatives not against homosexuals?
My reply: I did not say it. You did. Please look at the big picture and extract the essence.
++
“These acts are to be condemned, i.e. the homosexual acts are burn in hell not the homosexuals!”
My reply: I did not say it. You did again.
++
“What both Rony and Richard are saying is that homosexual acts are burn in hell NOT homosexuals!”
My reply: I did not say it. You did yet again. .I do not believe in a god or a after-life so no hell or heaven.
XXXXXXXXXX
c. GetReal on Thu, 25th Feb 2010 6:13 pm
TR is only the forum and please don’t shoot the messenger. TR is not about gay activism. Let’s not be facetious with our remarks.
The article certain was meant to stimulate discussion but not hate. Look at the article objectively.
XXXXXXXXXX
d. ingin Tan on Thu, 25th Feb 2010 3:52 pm
Sir, thank you..
XXXXXXXXXX
e. Spit on Thu, 25th Feb 2010 9:32 pm
Your question: Are you gay, Richard Lu?
My answer : Categorically not.
Please see my comments Richard Lu on Wed, 24th Feb 2010 9:59 pm.
I am a liberal and my philosophy in life is to live and let live.
I contributed that article to show how in liberal democracies homophobia has diminished and Singaporeans speaks of democratizing. My next point is do we treat LGBT any lesser than anyone else?
Your statement: We don’t need gay activists like you in Singapore! Get lost.
Sorry but aren’t you presumptuous and behaving like a spoil child? From your statements I surmise that you are anti-LBGT.
Allow me ask:
a. If a member in your family gay or lesbian, do you love this person much less?
b. If you are a Christian, would you not let a lesbian or gay worship with you?
c. Would you have the same attitude (anti-gay) if the person is your fellow Christian from your church?
++++++++++
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@ingin Tan on Thu, 25th Feb 2010 3:52 pm
Dear Ingin,
I have no qualm if Richard is discussing the content of whatever Rony has said or even to quote reference to what he had said in presenting his article.
The gist of the article is about homosexuality in general and has nothing to do with Pastor Rony. It starts with uttering some western views on homosexuality and he tries to bring in history and religions reference. He furthers by bringing forth Section 377A of the Penal Code and his opinion on how others should threat LGBT. He ended by quoting out of context on the bible which he candidly drags in christianity for nothing but to help him to make his article more palatable.
I like Richard as a writer but my comment is for him to know that by riding the coattail of someone infamy to aid readership for his article is not ethical. Without pulling in Rony it is a more respectable article, that is all. Richard should have confidence in himself and gain respect as a confident writer rather than touch on slimy ground.
If one day you fall victim to netterism and gutter journalist start exploiting your name to boost their article, is that fair to you. I rather they discuss in what you have done right or wrong, rather than making use of your name to uplift their own popularity. If the reference is in proofing a point I would have view it acceptable but in Richard’s article it is totally unneccessary.
Hope you get the drift and after looking into the mirror, I see someone looking just like me and he is so youthful and handsome.
Cheers,
CitizenofSG
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Does anybody really think that God (if there is one) will condemn a person to hell because of loving someone?
Sure it’s unnatural. Homosexuality is unnatural to me (am i a homophobe?) but these are people too with the same trials and troubles as us.
This pastor should follow his god’s advice. I doubt Jesus would be fretting and be nervous about homosexuality when children are starving and illegal wars are being waged on.
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look what I found in my engineering newsletter
On This Day
February 25, 1616 – Because of his assertion that the earth moves around the sun, Galileo was ordered by Cardinal Bellarmine “to give up altogether the false doctrine… and if you should refuse.. you should be imprisoned.”
I hope we would never sink to that low again
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To Richard Lu,
You are being PRESUMPTIOUS in assuming that I am a Christian. 2 of your 3 questions to me pertains to it.
For your record, I am not a Christian.
The fact that you biased your question towards Chrisitiany show that you already have a preconceived idea that Chrisitians are the ONLY one against gays activism.
That say so much on your journastic impartiality…Huh !
For your info, I am a mainstream heartlander with conservative values which the majority of SIngaporeans are !
If you do not know that, you are out of whack with Singapore society…and you will probably be better off changing jobs , rather than pretend to be “the voice of Singaporeaans”
To answer your question a). Yes I would love the gay as a person but I do not need gay activism to promote their rights and lustful ways.
As PM have said, they should do their things in private.
What they try to do in AWARE is despicable and I detest gay activism for trying to brainwash our school going kids.
Get the picture now ?
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If you do not know the Bible well, please save yourself the emabarrasment by not quoting anything instead
The fact that you use the wrong verse to substantiante your case shows how scant your respect is for CHrisitnity.
My advice: Please take time to understand before attempting
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Richard Lu on Fri, 26th Feb 2010 1:49 am
Thank you for your reply. While you had not delved on religion at great length, you can’t deny there is no element of it in your article. This forum is about Rony’s staged discourse on homosexuality at a Christian event. So most of the comments can be attributed to what he said. However, when I refer to “Richard said” I was referring to what you wrote – black and white. If you didn’t say, then you should paraphrase your statements with “I am not saying”, “I quote” or place your statements in quotation marks. Hmm …. am I teaching a journalist how to write?
As to your refrains ‘I didn’t say, you did and again’, what I said was extension of what you said. If you didn’t say or write in the first place, how could I extend or add rejoinder?
So, I wouldn’t deny what I wrote. What was not said by me, I would mention names like Richard say or OTE say.
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The government have already laid down clearly the OB markers for gays.
It’s unfortunate that tabloids such as TR choose to stir up extra controversy on this issue, knowing that there was a prior heated “event” on this.
This smacks of an opportunistic underhand attempt to re-kindle the cry for gay activism and rights in conservation singapore,
despite the fact that Home minister WKS specifically said that he will not tolerate people taking advantage of this event to further their agenda.
Perhaps ISD should pay Mr Lu a visit as to why is he re-igniting this contoversial fire at this time…perhaps to cause even greater dissension between mainstream conservative Singapore and the gay community? Or does he has some personal hidden agenda ?
If Mr Lu is not a gay, I will bet he is a closeted one.
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Spit on Fri, 26th Feb 2010 9:56 am
Thank you for your comments and thank you for stating your religious affinity.
There is nothing in my article to suggest that it promotes gay activism and neither is there any intention to. I am NOT gay, like you, I am definitely NOT FOR GAY ACTIVISM…..but we cannot deny the gays their rights. I even pointed out to Section 337A and what our PM said i.e. to leave them alone but do not bash them like the pseudo-Christians do a-la Rony Tan and the group of Dr. Thio Lee Ann in the AWARE saga.
Let me pose you this – Do you condone “ANTI-GAY ACTIVISM”? Is this OK?
Homosexuality is neither right nor wrong. We cannot pass judgment as, like fashion, it is a product of the thinking of the times. Just because we do not practice it (and it is the norm not to do so), we should not condemn. It is a personal choice.
One last point – we are in a discussion and when you say “Get lost” it is the ultimate surrender. All I wish is the article stimulates discussion and not meant for us to be personal and hit out at one another. One really must see the wood from the trees and not nit-pick. I definitely would prefer to hear different viewpoints and contributions e.g. if homosexuality can be cured or counseled, information from new research, etc. rather than just condemnation of the LGBTs.
citizenSG on Fri, 26th Feb 2010 2:14 am
Thanks for your comments. No, I do not want to lend credence to Pastor Rony Tan. There was also no intent to drag him into the discussion. But it is akin to discussing Lee Kuan Yew without mentioning the PAP. It is what I call “topical association”. No harm meant.
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Richard,
If what you said ( as your claim) is your personal opinion, then it should remain as a personal opinion.
If it is a PERSONAL OPINION , it should be on your personal blog than in TR in full front page glory ?
If it is on TR frontpage, thaen it constitues the opinion of TR, and its no longer personal.
Learn from this lesson, keep your private thoughts to yourself and the world will be more peaceful.
We don’t need another troublemaker to stir the hornet’s nest
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{aah-haa on Fri, 26th Feb 2010 1:29 am
Pardon me, I still don’t get this: “Christians are not against homosexuals but against homosexual acts.” And OTE said: “Writer Mr Richard Lu is quite right say Christians (and Jews) are more concerned with the homosexual act (especially for gays) rather than the person indulging in it. The act is senseless, sordid and so is repulsive, not the individual.”
Commonsense tells me that homosexual acts must be acts performed or indulged by homosexuals. What are these? Since they have been described as sordid and repulsive I have to assume that homosexual acts refer to oral and/or anal sex. These acts are condemnable but not the individuals (performing/indulging). Based on this line of reasoning, two corollaries arise: (1) the acts can come about by themselves, and (2) do not require actor, performer, procurer, or commissioner. The actor and the act are separate. Without the actor, there is the act!
This somehow contradicts Section 377A: “Any male person who, in public or private, commits, or abets the commission of, or procures or attempts to procure the commission by any male person of, any act of gross indecency with another male person, shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to 2 years.”
Shouldn’t the act got to jail and not the homosexual? Can someone help me reconcile this contradiction?}
============================================================
PASRT 2 – “LOVE THE SINNER AND HATE THE SIN (ESPECIALLY THOSE INSIDE OURSELVES)”
Thanks “aah-haa” for asking me/Christians for clarification. Actually, I don’t care a hoot if people want to be a homo or not so long as they are not so audacious as wanting to rape angels (re Genesis 19:4-11); or stalk and chase our men in/near public toilets for homosex (such as in Beach Road Golden Mile Complex toilets). Or sexually stalking our men in public swimming complexes; and molesting boys in the toilets of our public libraries.
In other words, I can still patronise coffee stalls and food stalls operated by gays; or seek the expert and professional service of gays in something that they are good in. If they provide good, honest and respectful service than others, then I will give them the business even if I know that they are gays. After all, they need to earn an honest living to survive and find meaning in life.
I just hate their sordid practices (like their stinking and senseless anal copulation). But so long as they keep those sordid things to themselves and not try to evangelise others to their sordid and repulsive practices (to corrupt our youngsters and pose an existential threat to Singapore through their gay political activism), it is okay with me. How can I be condemning the gays when they are doing the right things to earn an honest living?
I am obliged to “Love the sinner, and hate the sin (especially those inside myself).” After all, I am a sinner too, living under the sufference of a compassionate God.
So I hope I have succeeded to clarify my position to you, sir! God bless!
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You ask “Let me pose you this – Do you condone “ANTI-GAY ACTIVISM”? Is this OK?”
My answer: If there is no Gay Activism, would there be a need for anti-Gay activism ? Are you saying that its a myth that AWARE tried to brainwash our kids into thinking that ANAL sex is healthy ?
You said “Homosexuality is neither right nor wrong”
From a societal point of view(which the majority subscibe to) from a spiritual point of view and from a biolgical point of view Homosexuality is wrong
From which authority are you speaking from other than you own ?
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@ Richard Lu on Fri, 26th Feb 2010 12:59 pm
@ Spit on Fri, 26th Feb 2010 9:56 am
Richard Lu wrote : ” Homosexuality is neither right nor wrong. We cannot pass judgment as, like fashion, it is a product of the thinking of the times. Just because we do not practice it (and it is the norm not to do so), we should not condemn. It is a personal choice. ”
Let me give you what the scientific and medical communities’s opinion.
(A) American Academy of Pediatrics (http://www.aap.org/)
In their patient education pamphlet : I think I might be gay. What should I do?
http://www.aap.org/publiced/BR_GayTeen.htm
You are normal
Homosexuality is not a mental disorder. All of the major medical organizations, including The American Psychiatric Association, The American Psychological Association, and the American Academy of Pediatrics agree that homosexuality is not an illness or disorder, but a form of sexual expression.
No one knows what causes a person to be gay, bisexual, or straight. There probably are a number of factors. Some may be biological. Others may be psychological. The reasons can vary from one person to another. The fact is, you do not choose to be gay, bisexual, or straight.
(B) American Psychiatric Association (http://www.psych.org/)
in their recent position statement 2005 :Support of Legal Recognition of Same-Sex Civil Marriage
http://www.psych.org/Departments/EDU/Library/APAOfficialDocumentsandRelated/PositionStatements/200502.aspx
The American Psychiatric Association has historically supported equity, parity, and non-discrimination in matters that have an impact on mental health. APA has also supported same-sex civil unions and the right of same-sex couples to adopt and co-parent children.
American Psychiatric Association had not changed their official stand that : is NORMAL , a position that the APA upheld since 1973.
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@ Spit on Fri, 26th Feb 2010 2:24 pm
When Richard Lu wrote :“Homosexuality is neither right nor wrong”
You replied : “From a societal point of view(which the majority subscibe to) from a spiritual point of view and from a biolgical point of view Homosexuality is wrong.”
and You asked : “From which authority are you speaking from other than you own ? ”
I shall tell you, with the authority of American Psychaitric Association (APA) and American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), it represent the current medical and scientific communities opinion, that HOMOSEXUALITY IS NORMAL.
Since 1973, when APA removed homosexuality as a mental-disorder entity, more and more National and International bodies (examples: singapore Ministry of HEALTH, and World Health Organisation, respectively) adopted the decision of APA.
As WHO and APA are the publisher of ICD-10 and DSM-IV-TR respectively, which are the two volumes that (nearly all) national medical ministries throughout the whole world use to classify and record admission records, since APA drop the entity of HOMOSEXUALITY as mental illness, effectively NO hospitals in the world admits patient under “Homosexuality”.
If you can provide me with any singapore psychiatrists who make a diagnosis of “Homosexuality” , i would be very delighted to report this doctor to Singapore Medical Council, for making a non-existence disease to patient, and shall ask SMC to investigate the intention for this psychiatrist to make such a diagnosis.
For your further information, reparative therapy had also been declared to be unethical and unscientific based, and all psychiatric units and departments of Singapore Government Hospital DO NOT PRACTICE REPARATIVE THERAPY.
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@ Spit on Fri, 26th Feb 2010 2:24 pm
When Richard Lu wrote :“Homosexuality is neither right nor wrong”
You replied : “From a societal point of view(which the majority subscibe to) from a spiritual point of view and from a biolgical point of view Homosexuality is wrong.”
AHHHH…… from a societal point of view !!!
The APA and the other 12 organizations that comprise the Just the Facts Coalition have just published a new edition of Just the Facts about Sexual Orientation and Youth: A Primer for Principals, Educators, and School Personnel. ( http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/just-the-facts.pdf PDF, 254 KB ) This group of national education, health, mental health and religious organizations believe that all students should have an opportunity to learn and develop in a safe and supportive environment. Just the Facts provides information and resources for principals, educators, and school personnel who confront sensitive issues involving gay, lesbian, and bisexual students.
May i refer you to the title-page, that listed the 13 organisations:
American Academy of Pediatrics
American Association of School Administrators
American Counseling Association
American Federation of Teachers
American Psychological Association
American School Counselor Association
American School Health Association
Interfaith Alliance Foundation
National Association of School Psychologists
National Association of Secondary School Principals
National Association of SocialWorkers
National Education Association
School SocialWork Association of America
that endorse the publication.
And i refer you to page 3 (of the 24 pages article) :
The reason for publishing this booklet now is to provide you, as principals, educators, and school personnel,with accurate information that will help you respond to a recent upsurge in promotion of efforts to change sexual orientation through therapy and religiousministries. This upsurge has been coupled with a demand that these perspectives on homosexuality be given equal time in schools.
Yes, the anti-Gay Homophobes wanted to pressurise school principals to give emphasis on SEXUAL-ORIENTATION-CHANGE-EFFORT (SOCE). Yes, the influence had come to singapore too.
Also on page 3 of this 24 pages article :
Sexual orientation conversion therapy refers to counseling and psychotherapy to attempt to eliminate individuals’ sexual desires for members of their own sex.
Ex-gay ministry refers to the religious groups that use religion to attempt to eliminate those desires.
Typically, sexual orientation conversion therapy is promoted by providers who have close ties to religious institutions and
organizations. Some religion-based organizations such as Focus on the Family have invested significant resources in the promotion of sexual orientation conversion therapy and ex-gay ministries to educators and young people in conferences, in advertising, and in the media.
Does reparative therapy works ???? Let me provide you with scientific evidence, from none-other than NARTH, which is the most vociferous in advocating reparative therapy. (http://www.narth.com/docs/cummings.html)
Dr. Nicholas Cummings : When I say that 67% had satisfactory outcomes, the majority of these were able to attain a more happy and sane homosexual life style with stable relationships.
This would have been a bit more than 10,000 of the 18,000 presenting, with another 2400 actually reorienting.
About 1/3 of the 18,000 had unsuccessful outcomes (continued promiscuity, unhappiness, perpetually chasing after anonymous sex, drug addiction, etc.).
(source of data : NARTH and Dr Cummings, past president of American Psychological Association)
NARTH dont even dare to trumpet these 2400 case success.
2400 / 18000 = 13.33%
How do NARTH define as SUCCESSFUL : Dr. Nicholas Cummings : When I say that 67% had satisfactory outcomes, the majority of these were able to attain a more happy and sane homosexual life style with stable relationships.
Hello, the patients are still HOMOSEXUAL and retain a more happy and sane HOMOSEXUAL LIFESTYLE !!!!!
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POSITION STATEMENT of American Psychiatric Association in 2002 regarding
“Adoption and Co-parenting of Children by Same-sex Couples”
http://www.psych.org/Departments/EDU/Library/APAOfficialDocumentsandRelated/PositionStatements/200214.aspx
Numerous studies over the last three decades consistently demonstrate that children raised by gay or lesbian parents exhibit the same level of emotional, cognitive, social, and sexual functioning as children raised by heterosexual parents.
This research indicates that optimal development for children is based not on the sexual orientation of the parents, but on stable attachments to committed and nurturing adults.
The research also shows that children who have two parents, regardless of the parents’ sexual orientations, do better than children with only one parent.
While some states have approved legislation sanctioning second parent adoption, other court judgments and legislation have prohibited lesbian women and gay men from adopting or co-parenting.
Therefore, in most of the United States, only one partner in a committed gay or lesbian couple may have a legal parental relationship to a child they are raising together.
Adoption by a second parent, however, would not only formalize a child’s existing relationships with both parents in a same-sex couple, it would also provide vital security for the child.
Children could avail themselves of both parents’ health insurance benefits, access to medical care, death benefits, inheritance rights, and child support from both parents in the event of separation. Adoption protects both parents’ rights to custody and/or visitation if the couple separates or if one parent dies.
The American Psychiatric Association has historically supported equity, parity, and non-discrimination regarding legal issues affecting mental health.
In 2000, APA supported the legal recognition of same sex unions and their associated legal rights, benefits, and responsibilities.
APA has also supported efforts to educate the public about homosexuality and the mental health needs of lesbian women, gay men, and their families.
Removing legal barriers that adversely affect the emotional and physical health of children raised by lesbian and gay parents is consistent with the goals of the APA.
The American Psychiatric Association supports initiatives which allow same-sex couples to adopt and co-parent children and supports all the associated legal rights, benefits, and responsibilities which arise from such initiatives.
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I notice civility in discussion/debate is inversely proportional to dogmatism/bigotry.
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From American Academy of Pediatrics
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/113/6/1827#SEC6
PEDIATRICS Vol. 113 No. 6 June 2004, pp. 1827-1832
“Sexual Orientation and Adolescents”
Barbara L. Frankowski, MD, MPH and Committee on Adolescence
Pediatricians are being asked with increasing frequency to address questions about sexual behavior and sexual orientation.
It is important that pediatricians be able to discuss the range of sexual orientation with all adolescents and be competent in dealing with the needs of patients who are gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgendered or who may not identify themselves as such but who are experiencing confusion with regard to their sexual orientation.
Young people whose sexual orientation is not heterosexual can have risks to their physical, emotional, and social health, primarily because of societal stigma, which can result in isolation.1,2
Because self-awareness of sexual orientation commonly occurs during adolescence, the pediatrician should be available to youth who are struggling with sexual orientation issues and support a healthy passage through the special challenges of the adolescent years.
Pediatricians may be called on to help parents, siblings, and extended families of nonheterosexual youth.
Also, nonheterosexual youth and adults are part of peer groups with whom all pediatric patients and their parents spend time in the neighborhood, at school, or at work.
Thus, pediatricians may be called on to help promote better understanding of issues involving nonheterosexual youth.
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1) Beside the trouble maker Pastor Derek Hong & Pastor Rony Tan, it is easy to locate such trouble maker among their believers.
2) Our Prime Minister need study the seriousness of removal all christian primary school and christian secondary schools within singapore context.
3) In fact all government schools must not have any religion related school especially the “christian religion” which will become a prominent social nuisance and country destroyer.
4) It appeared that young children here are influenced in christian school thus built their mentality and character so differently that made them not easy to mix with other people of different faiths.
5) Per our understanding, perhaps it was a wonderful plan by group of people to have Church located near HDB flats, next to HDB plaza, beside schools and other location easily accessible and prominent.
It is time to investigate the intention of those planners ( HDB & URA ) to eradicate and stop all these biased arrangement and salvage the situation before it is too late.
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Why Are There So Many Christian Schools In Singapore ?
Government-Aided schools
* Anglican High School
* Catholic High School
* CHIJ Katong Convent
* CHIJ Saint Joseph’s Convent
* CHIJ Saint Nicholas Girls’ School
* CHIJ Saint Theresa’s Convent
* CHIJ Secondary (Toa Payoh)
* Christ Church Secondary School
* Fairfield Methodist Secondary School
* Geylang Methodist School (Secondary)
* Hai Sing Catholic School
* Holy Innocents’ High School
Methodist Girls’ School (Primary)
# Saint Andrew’s Junior School
# Saint Anthony’s Canossian Primary School
# Saint Anthony’s Primary School
# Saint Gabriel’s Primary School
# Saint Hilda’s Primary School
# Saint Joseph’s Institution Junior (formerly known as Saint Michael’s School before 1 January 2007)
# Saint Margaret’s Primary School
# Saint Stephen’s School
SAP ( Christian Schools )
# Anglican High School
# Catholic High School
# CHIJ Saint Nicholas Girls’ School
* Kuo Chuan Presbyterian Secondary School
* Manjusri Secondary School
* Maris Stella High School
* Montfort Secondary School
* Nan Chiau High School
* Ngee Ann Secondary School
* Paya Lebar Methodist Girls’ School (Secondary)
* Presbyterian High School
* Saint Andrew’s Secondary School
* Saint Anthony’s Canossian Secondary School
* Saint Gabriel’s Secondary School
* Saint Hilda’s Secondary School
* Saint Patrick’s School, Singapore
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There are many aspects of homosexuality, of which the morality part is most debatable. So what is right and wrong about homosexuality? If “there is neither right nor wrong”, then why all the bible quotations, church testimonies, blogs, pro and anti activism, Section 377A, condemnation, etc.?
I guess staying neutral is blameless?
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Is it unhealthy & biased to have So Many Christian Schools In Singapore ?
Government-Aided schools
* Anglican High School
* Catholic High School
* CHIJ Katong Convent
* CHIJ Saint Joseph’s Convent
* CHIJ Saint Nicholas Girls’ School
* CHIJ Saint Theresa’s Convent
* CHIJ Secondary (Toa Payoh)
* Christ Church Secondary School
* Fairfield Methodist Secondary School
* Geylang Methodist School (Secondary)
* Hai Sing Catholic School
* Holy Innocents’ High School
Methodist Girls’ School (Primary)
# Saint Andrew’s Junior School
# Saint Anthony’s Canossian Primary School
# Saint Anthony’s Primary School
# Saint Gabriel’s Primary School
# Saint Hilda’s Primary School
# Saint Joseph’s Institution Junior (formerly known as Saint Michael’s School before 1 January 2007)
# Saint Margaret’s Primary School
# Saint Stephen’s School
SAP ( Christian Schools )
# Anglican High School
# Catholic High School
# CHIJ Saint Nicholas Girls’ School
* Kuo Chuan Presbyterian Secondary School
* Paya Lebar Methodist Girls’ School (Secondary)
* Presbyterian High School
* Saint Andrew’s Secondary School
* Saint Anthony’s Canossian Secondary School
* Saint Gabriel’s Secondary School
* Saint Hilda’s Secondary School
* Saint Patrick’s School, Singapore
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Spit on Fri, 26th Feb 2010 2:24 pm
“You ask “Let me pose you this – Do you condone “ANTI-GAY ACTIVISM”? Is this OK?”
My answer: If there is no Gay Activism, would there be a need for anti-Gay activism ?”
——-
Oh NO you don’t try to SNAKE one on us. It should in reality be;
If there is no Anti-Gay Activism, would there be a need for Gay activism.
From Timbuktu to Nigeria to our city state company Singapore, GLBT has NEVER ever pushed their agenda onto the majority. Only when they were pushed to the wall and constantly persecuted by the self professed moral right, GLBT decided that enough is enough, they fought back. Stonewall was not an exercise of gay activism but a desperate defense to NOT ever be slammed down again to the floor each and every time the so called moral majority feel like having a weekend fiesta.
GLBT keeps to their own peacefully. Contrary to what the “moral majority” like to flatter themselves with, GLBT has better taste than to associate with closed minded bigots.
So clearly, in your deluded eyes, any defence to establish a balance by those bullied by persecution and discrimination is known as activism? ha ha..Kena sai! You need serious rehabilitation.
“Are you saying that its a myth that AWARE tried to brainwash our kids into thinking that ANAL sex is healthy ?”
———-
ANAL sex MUST be healthy right since even our almighty government made it LEGAL for your to sodomise your female loved ones? If it were so biologically destructive, morally offensive…blah blah…then as I said countless times here to retards, why don’t all of you hypocrites protest against these “EVIL” practice stolen from right under the nose of GLBT? It’s tantamount to saying that it’s now ILLEGAL for Taoist/Buddhist to pray to statues/idols of Buddha or other deities BUT since the twisted law now permits other faiths to do so LEGALLY, Christians or Muslims can now enjoy this freedom wholeheartedly? Duh?
“You said “Homosexuality is neither right nor wrong”
From a societal point of view(which the majority subscibe to) from a spiritual point of view and from a biolgical point of view Homosexuality is wrong
From which authority are you speaking from other than you own ?”
——————-
Ya, damn right..From which authority are you speaking from other than you own ?
All you self appointed anti-gay crusaders, don’t act or speak as if you feel you are in the “moral majority” and has the twisted law on your side or your given birthright to persecute another human being just because you CHOOSE NOT to understand or tolerate differences. You deceive yourself and your darkness will eventually destroy you and everything you hold dear. This IS the universal COSMIC law of retribution/karma.
Have fun, and feel free to keep playing with your self..:)
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Look at today news..a swimming coach prey on young boys due to his homosexual tendency…24 years in jail….Gay and as hole bandit..watch out…!!! Good that this pastor stand on this issue firmly!
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Look at today news-260210 (TODAY front page headlines)..
SINGAPORE – A Singapore court has sentenced a man who raped his younger sister to 13 years in jail, a media report said Saturday.
The now 21-year-old brother, who was not named to protect the victim’s identity, started to rape his sister, now 16, when both shared a bedroom in 2005 or 2006, the Straits Times newspaper reported.
He repeatedly raped his sister, the youngest of three siblings in the family, until 2007 when the girl eventually left home to live with her then-boyfriend.
The teenage girl did not reveal the abuse until April last year, the report said.
Her brother was also ordered to be caned 15 strokes.
Straight and pussyhole bandit..watch out…!!! Good that this pastor stand on one issue and when ISD call him up, quickly LL kena sai APOLOGISE and now say completely different thing firmly!
So many loser “Ass holes” (see above Zzzz), so little time.
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http://news.asiaone.com/News/the%2BStraits%2BTimes/Story/A1Story20100220-199796.html (Jail, caning for brother who raped sister)
http://news.asiaone.com/News/The%2BNew%2BPaper/Story/A1Story20100221-199963.html (A mom’s agony: her son rapes daughter)
SHE suffered in silence for three years, repeatedly raped and molested by her older brother, and when the teenager finally confronted him, he beat her.
The then 14-year-old later ran away from home, but it was 11/2 years later that she finally reported him to the authorities.
Yesterday, in a rare case of rape involving siblings, the 21-year-old brother, a national serviceman before his arrest, was jailed for 13 years and ordered to be caned 15 strokes for the sexual offences. He was also fined $1,800 and banned from driving for a year for unrelated traffic offences.
Heterosexual and as incest bandit..watch out…!!! strange that this pastor did not stand on this issue firmly ??? !!!
Oops, i forgot. Abraham married his half sister sarah too.
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Ass hole Bandit,
What are you trying to proof?
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I have an interesting insight on the issue of incest. Will share with all of you when i have the time.
Meantime, better warn all the gays what they will be in for if they commit molestsation of boys. Read for yourself—–
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/cna/20100226/tap-145-24-ex-swimming-coach-sentenced-y-231650b.html
CNA – Ex—swimming coach sentenced to 24 years’ jail, 24 strokes cane
SINGAPORE: A 34—year—old former swimming coach pleaded guilty on Friday to committing sexual offences against two boys.
One of them was his six year old student, and the other was then nine years old.
The man was also charged with possessing 190 obscene films.
He was sentenced to 24 years’ jail and 24 strokes of the cane
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OTE, you have nothing to prove. Pls read the 3 posts above you.
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I find a contradiction in this statement which I am trying to reconcile: “homosexuality is neither right nor wrong”, then what it is in terms of morality?
Not Right = Wrong (moral issue)
Not Wrong = Right (moral issue)
Neither Right = Right & Not Right (??)
nor Wrong = Wrong & Not Wrong (??)
Help!
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http://news.asiaone.com/News/the%2BStraits%2BTimes/Story/A1Story20100220-199796.html (Jail, caning for brother who raped sister)
http://news.asiaone.com/News/The%2BNew%2BPaper/Story/A1Story20100221-199963.html (A mom’s agony: her son rapes daughter)
SHE suffered in silence for three years, repeatedly raped and molested by her older brother, and when the teenager finally confronted him, he beat her.
The then 14-year-old later ran away from home, but it was 11/2 years later that she finally reported him to the authorities.
Yesterday, in a rare case of rape involving siblings, the 21-year-old brother, a national serviceman before his arrest, was jailed for 13 years and ordered to be caned 15 strokes for the sexual offences. He was also fined $1,800 and banned from driving for a year for unrelated traffic offences.
Heterosexual and incest bandit..watch out…!!! strange that this pastor did not stand on this issue firmly ??? !!!
Oops, i forgot. Abraham married his half sister sarah too.
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@ aah-haa on Fri, 26th Feb 2010 7:51 pm
Perhaps you can help me too, and advise accordingly“Is incest morally right or wrong
Please help, what do you classify Abraham marriage with his sister, Sarah, and they begotten Issac.
(for a clearer context, please refer to Genesis 11-12 Abraham answered, “i thoughtthat there would be no one here who fears GOD, and that they would kill me to get my wife. She really is my sister. She is the daughter of my fther, but not of my mother, and i married her. )
Dear Great Moralist,
while you are at it, please also advise, how should the children of the two daughters of LOT (yes, that great moral sinless man who escape the fire of Sodom and Gomorrah), the two daughters sleep with the sinless father LOT to had two children, Moab and Benammi. Dear great moralist, how should Moab and Benammi address LOT , as father or as grandfather ??? And how should LOT called them, my son or my grandson.
Help, i cant help, but also asked, how should the mothers, called their sons, as son or as brother (since Moab and Benammi were son of LOT).
Dear great moralist, please also advise, how did Cain begotten his son, enoch. I understand , at that time, abel was dead, and so only Adam, Eve and Cain walked on the surface of earth. I guess, you are against homosexuality, and you proclaim that, homosexuality cannot pro-create, so , CAIN must be sleeping with EVE ??? OH, help, but EVE is cain’s mother.
Help, great moralist, please advise.
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■Why Are There So Many Christian Schools In Singapore ? on Fri, 26th Feb 2010 5:05 pm
Why Are There So Many Christian Schools In Singapore ?
The other 88% of citizens would have no objection to it as long as it is privately funded to serve the 12% of them. But it is not so. They are still govt funded. All public schools should be secular. It all taxpayers money.
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OBmark on Fri, 26th Feb 2010 12:55 pm
“Perhaps ISD should pay Mr Lu a visit …. between mainstream conservative Singapore and the gay community? Or does he has some personal hidden agenda?
If Mr Lu is not a gay, I will bet he is a closeted one.”
Sir, I repeat – I am not gay and definitely not a closeted one. Only that I do not discriminate against gays.
I find your comments rather strange. Are Singaporeans to be blinkered and muzzled and prevented from discussions?
Do you understand the Sedition Act? Have I incited hate or cast aspersions on a religion or an individual or group?
Did I do any of the hate things that Pastor Rony Tan did and got way with? What ISD then?
+++++
Ass hole Bandit on Fri, 26th Feb 2010 5:53 pm
Oh Tham Eng on Fri, 26th Feb 2010 7:11 pm
Gentlemen, sorry but you do not seem to be able to differentiate between criminals and private citizens making personal choices in private.
All sex crimes, molests, rapes and incest are vile and detestable and can be committed with the same sex and children.
GAYS OR LESBIANS HAVE NO CONNECTIONS SEX CRIMINALS !!!
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What? on Fri, 26th Feb 2010 1:15 pm
What is your point?
+++++
Now not talent anymore on Fri, 26th Feb 2010 4:05 pm
Now Now not talent anymore on Fri, 26th Feb 2010 4:05 pm
Now not talent anymore on Fri, 26th Feb 2010 4:26 pm
Sir, thank you. You are providing interesting discussion and we are being educated.
+++++
aah-haa on Fri, 26th Feb 2010 7:51 pm
An act between 2 consenting adults in private – is it wrong? The question about it being right does not arise. Is it unnatural? I don’t know. But it is certainly not a crime.
The emotional attraction between persons of the same sex – is this wrong? It may be natural for these gays and lesbians to have such emotions but these emotions may not be normal.
This emotional thing is the realm of science and medicine that I do not know.
All I have been saying is we give these LGBTs their space …… Got me?
+++++
Look at these “freaks” of nature -
Protandry: an organism is born as a male, and then changes sex to a female e.g. clownfish
Protogyny: the organism starts life as a female, and then changes sex to a male e.g. wrasses
A simultaneous (or synchronous) hermaphrodite: is an adult organism that has both male and female sexual organs at the same time. Usually, self-fertilization does not occur e.g. snails.
Are these creatures wrong? Are they not natural? If there is a god, did he designed these freaks this way?
Now try understanding man, the most complex of creatures ! What is more when we get a gay or lesbian or bi-sexual or trans-sexual !
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@Now not talent anymore
Perhaps I can help you there. If you were to immerse a little bit into Jewish culture and traditions, they have a practice dating back to Biblical times where the preservation of royal lineage is carried on via incest.
The succession in leadership of their tribes or royalty was usually through the offspring of siblings from the same father, the reason being they wanted to preserve 100 % lineage by blood. That will explain about the context why Abraham made that remark.
Hope that is of some help to you. The Merovingians (in ancient French history) carried this same practice of royal inheritance through illegitimate offspring. And they were said to have evolved from the generations that grew out of the immigrants from the Holy Land, i.e. the Jews.
I hope that helps.
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Your sick are dying and cannot afford medical, your poor need help,your old are finding difficulties in this costly city your son and daughters cannot afford a home of their own and et.etc.etc.
What do we have here??? RONY TAN, GAYS, JESUS, BUDDHA…….etc.etc
Singapore deserve to DIE!!!!!!
I GIVE UP!!!!!!
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@ I Tread The Middle Path on Fri, 26th Feb 2010 11:32 pm
You wrote : “If you were to immerse a little bit into Jewish culture and traditions, they have a practice dating back to Biblical times where the preservation of royal lineage is carried on via incest.”
Ahhh……. so the biblical people embrace incest, to keep their wealth ???
So, it is acceptable to practice incest ???
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@ Now not talent anymore on Fri, 26th Feb 2010 9:10 pm
/// Perhaps you can help me too, ….. ///
I am not sure whether you are asking me to help or some other great moralists. However, I will chip in my 2cents worth of opinion but please don’t call me a great moralist, else I be nailed to the cross!
As to Abrahamic marriage, incest and so forth that you mentioned, why don’t you go to ‘The Beginning’? The Creator God created the first man on Earth – Adam (who some believed was a hermaphrodite). Then He ‘fashioned’ the first woman Eve out of Adam’s spare rib. Technically, Eve comes from Adam (some sort of cloning) because there was no biological reproduction. Then Adam and Eve beget children the ‘painful’ way because they ate the forbidden apple. Their children (said to be three but certainly more) would have to have sexual relations with one another (siblings or parents) in order to beget more children.
[Let me qualify here that Judaism, Orthodox churches and other sects have their own views on Adam & Eve and the beginning of sin, so whoever out there please spare me this part and don’t turn me into a woman!]
(1) Since Christians take the bible as words of God, then what happened from the time of Adam & Eve is simply this: incest had taken place and God didn’t say a word about it.
As to Sarah, Lot, Cain, Enoch and et al, please use the definition of incest (sexual relationship with close relatives) as your guide.
(2) The interesting thing is this – the Jews, Christians and Muslims (Abrahamic) have rules on incest relationships. This implies that Abrahamic religions do not consider incest wrong. Within incest, the rules indicate who amongst the close relatives can form sexual relations with one another.
(3) Non-Abrahamic religions (Hinduism, Buddhism) generally frown upon incest but stopped short of moralising is as right or wrong. Buddhism, most probably would consider incest under the 3rd Precept – sexual misconduct.
Could someone shed some light about primitive close-knit tribes in the deepest and darkest part of Africa? Do they practice incest? I think they do.
(4) Many societies today consider incest unacceptable and should be avoided. The Chinese even go to the end of having same surname marriage. This may not be related to religions or even morals. In some countries, incest is a crime.
(5) There are various types of incest and the manners in which they are committed. Some are forced while others are consensual. To this, I may add – assisted. For example: when a daughter is ‘offered’ by her biological mother to her step-father.
(6) My view: unless there is an Adam-Eve situation, incest is unacceptable even when consensual. It is violation when forced or ‘offered’ and certainly an abuse of trust in a close relationship. Moreover, there will be ‘complications’ like someone who asked: what do you call the son born out of father-daughter sexual relationship?
And like rape, most victims of incest are traumatised. If rape is a crime, so must incest. Thus, incest is wrong.
Of course, I don’t believe in Adam & Eve. The above are how I see incest NOT advice. Please weigh in your thoughts and don’t take it that I am right.
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Reading all above posts, the conclusion is:
GLBT are anti-Chritianity!
Christian are anti-GLBT!
OK, let’s move on…nothing will change these 2 groups!
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LOL. asshole bandits? lol that’s a weird name. haha try butt pirates next time hahahahaha
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aah-haa on Sat, 27th Feb 2010 12:10 pm
A logical, brilliant and insightful expose on the highs and lows of what is more allowed, by some for some, than others.
In spiritual & Jewish mystic circles that dwelt even deeper into the missing years of Jesus and the creation of man, it is widely postulated that Adam had “children” outside of his union with Eve and I’m not just stopping at his incestuous liaisons. In Jewish folklore, “Lilith”* is the name for Adam’s first wife and had children; Shedim, Lilin, and Rauchin.
*Lilith appears as a night demon in Jewish lore and as a screech owl in Isaiah 34:14 in the King James version of the Bible.
So for those wishing to use their books of faith to pontificate that some are more equal than others in the sins department, I suggest they pick up a metal spoon and start digging for more justification to further complete their own dysfunctional persecution of others.
Hmm, frolicking with demons and incest. And we wonder why the God of GLBT are different from mainstream. Their gods must be crazy.
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Avatar on Sat, 27th Feb 2010 1:09 pm
/// A logical, brilliant and insightful expose on the highs and lows of what is more allowed, by some for some, than others///
Thank you for your compliments. And thank you for sharing a Jewish folklore.
And I enjoyed the movies “The Gods Must Be Crazy” and its sequel.
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@ LOL on Sat, 27th Feb 2010 12:43 pm
/// Reading all above posts, the conclusion is:
GLBT are anti-Chritianity!
Christian are anti-GLBT! ///
I don’t think the two groups are mutually exclusive. However, we do know the position of mainstream Christianity. GLBTs can ‘believe’ the Bible, Creator God but it would be difficult to be Christians knowing that homosexuality was ‘condemned’.
Not all Christians are anti-GLBT in the ‘dogmatic’ sense. There are moderate Christians who looked at homosexuality in an open, empathetic and compassionate way. To this, I might add the Buddhists who do not have anything in their scriptures that explicitly ‘condemn’ homosexuality.
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aah haa
You are grossly mistaken. God created Adam because there was no one to till god’s garden. Adam was created to tend the garden of Eden. He then made Eve (out of Adam’s rib) because he wanted a companion for him. Elsewhere in the Bible it was also recorded that created men and women in his likeness (not Adam or Eve but other humans). Your shallowness in Bible knowledge is the typical example of the run-of-the-mill people who only know superficial stuff and take them to be the only truth there is, because that is the only truth they know.
Go and read up on the books of the Bible and you will find the relevant passages. I will not highlight to you where they appear, because it is obvious you have not even made any attempt to read it from your so called expose.
You seem to know everything about Christianity, but in actual fact, you know nothing. Please don’t insult Christianity anymore, in the same manner you don’t want others to insult Buddhism.
Thank you.
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@Now not talent anymore
Like I said, it was the practice for carrying on the royal lineage. They wanted 100 % pure blood for dynastic rule. So the children begotten from the union of half brother and half sister would have 100 % blood since their parents came from the same father (but only from different mother). This was a practice in ancient times. Even the Meroginvian dynasty in early France also practised this.
Technically it is not pure incest, since they have different mothers. But by relation, it can be considered to be.
Anyway, there is a misconception by a lot of people who only have superficial knowledge of the Bible, and they generally think that God only created Adam and Eve. The purpose of their original creation was not to proceate, but to tend the God’s garden. They were devoid of reproductive process. It was when they fell from grace (by eating from the tree of knowledge) that they gained this biological capability. People generally do not really know what this is all about. Only Bible scholars know the real meaning to this – because from the original Hebrew scriptures, the word “knowing” means “carnage knowledge”, i.e. having sex. So the tree of knowledge has got nothing to do with knowledge. It was probably a symbolic representation of some reproductive inducing products, etc. That was why after they had eaten the “apple” both Adam and Eve suddenly realised they were naked and were ashamed of their nakedness. That is the fact which a lot of people do not know, including the casual Christians.
Elsewhere, it is also written that God created humans, both male and female, in his likeness (that is why people assume that God must have looked like us because of the Bible’s statement that we are “in his likeness”). These other creation of God was for creation, when he specifically commanded to go populate the world, having made all animals subservient to man. Adam and Eve were banished from Eden and they started their own line of lineage, from which the eventual 12 tribes of Abraham evolved, not necessarily from “incest” but from other tribes from the humans created by God in Genesis.
Maybe if you have further interest, you should just take some time and read through the Bible, particularly the Book of Genesis. After you do, you will be surprised that there a lot of people out there who only thought that Adam and Eve were the only humans created by God, and that is a very erroneous view that needs to be corrected.
Don’t take my word for it. Go browse through.
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Now not talent anymore
Book of Genesis, Bible p.26 “And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creepy thing that creepeth upon the earth.”
p.27 “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him: male and female created he them.”
p.28 “And God blessed them, and god said unto them, Be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.”
Now, that was how mankind came to be and how we all began. We did not come from Adam and Eve lineage. The only people who came from Adam and Eve are the Jews, the children of Abraham.
Please do not listen to all those pseudo Christians and those with little knowledge of the Bible spout all the nonesense. You should know who the professor of misinformation is on this forum.
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Whoever that said.
So the tree of knowledge has got nothing to do with knowledge. It was probably a symbolic representation of some reproductive inducing products, etc.
Interesting, this part of the bible you take it symbolically. But the part about homosexual is a sin is taken literally.
If this is not cherry-picking theology, i dont know what is.
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Tread middle path?
. The purpose of their original creation was not to proceate, but to tend the God’s garden. They were devoid of reproductive process. It was when they fell from grace (by eating from the tree of knowledge) that they gained this biological capability. People generally do not really know what this is all about.
So adam and eve in the begining are devoid of reproductive process.
Since they were both made in the image of God (who is masculine)
Hmmmm that means they are both the same, no? Sexless or same sex?
Wow that means they were the very first homosexual couple according to that logic. They become heterosexual by commiting the sin (eating the fruit of tree of knowledge).
Plot thickens . . .
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@ Christian on Sat, 27th Feb 2010 5:00 pm
you wrote : “Elsewhere in the Bible it was also recorded that GOD created men and women in his likeness (not Adam or Eve but other humans).”
@ I Tread The Middle Path on Sat, 27th Feb 2010 5:20 pm
you wrote : “Anyway, there is a misconception by a lot of people who only have superficial knowledge of the Bible, and they generally think that God only created Adam and Eve. ” AND “Elsewhere, it is also written that God created humans, both male and female, in his likeness . These other creation of God was for creation, when he specifically commanded to go populate the world, having made all animals subservient to man. Adam and Eve were banished from Eden and they started their own line of lineage, from which the eventual 12 tribes of Abraham evolved, not necessarily from “incest” but from other tribes from the humans created by God in Genesis.”
@ Christian on Sat, 27th Feb 2010 5:32 pm
You wrote : “We did not come from Adam and Eve lineage. The only people who came from Adam and Eve are the Jews, the children of Abraham. ”
Thank you very much……. i love your theology very much.
What a relief, my ancester is NOT adam and eve…….
So, whatever sin that ADAM and EVE committed, shall not come upon me.
Thank you very much…….. now i know i dont have original sin (as a result of the stupidity of that brainless eve, who loves chatting so much with a talking snake) Thank goodness….. now i know, since my ancester is not adam and eve…… hence, i dont have the original sin.
So, pray tell, then why do i need your religion…. i dont have the original sin, and i do good deeds in my life……. why do i need a personal saviour to cleanse the sin that is from adam and eve……
Hello, i dont have original sin.
Your theology is really atrocious, just because you want to make INCEST more palatable………….
Pray tell, next time, dont say ” god created adam and eve, not adam and steve” to justify your theology……. Because, by saying that, there are other people that is being created in the begining, then, god must have created ADAM and STEVE, EVE and ADELINE, JAMES and JACOB, MARY and MARGARET…. etc, you had already added additional verse to the bible, please read Genesis 2: 23 (after god put adam into a deep sleep and created eve) what did adam said ???
Genesis 2:23 Then the man (ADAM) said, “At last, here is one of my own kind— bone taken from my bone, and flesh from my flesh……”
ADAM already said, at last, here is one of his kind, meaning, there is no other HUMAN.
(perhaps, you like the evolutionists idea, that, adam and eve is Homo sapiens, and other people are Homo erectus etc)
(hey, that is not ok too………. because HUMAN is defined as Homo sapiens, and other eg Homo erectus, Homo rudolfensis, Homo habilis etc…… are still animal)
So, if you argue that, cain married other Hominids, not Homo sapiens, then, are you saying bestiality is ok ??? Now, if Rony Tan made fun of homo wanting to marry donkey, then, what have you to say, that cain married orang utan.
Also, please read, Genesis 3:22-23 (abbreviated) god sent adam and eve out of garden of eden.. he did not mention sending other hominids or other human (homo sapiens) out of garden of eden…….. and ADAM and EVE are the two only HOMO sapiens on the surface of earth…….. even other human are created, they remain in garden of eden.
So, please prove that, cain did not have incestuous sex with his mother.
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Richard Lu on Fri, 26th Feb 2010 11:16 pm
///A simultaneous (or synchronous) hermaphrodite: is an adult organism that has both male and female sexual organs at the same time. ///
like Godzilla, the post nuclear test freak hermaphrodite that can reproduce asexually. : )
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Native Singaporans on Fri, 26th Feb 2010 4:34 pm
///Per our understanding, perhaps it was a wonderful plan by group of people to have Church located near HDB flats, next to HDB plaza, beside schools and other location easily accessible and prominent.///
And the same group dump the temples into industrial estates.
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Examples of Chinese and Indian temples in Industrial estates. Why are they located there in the first place? Temple worshippers all live in industrial parks?
Loyang Industrial Estate
Defu Industrial Estate
Toa Payoh Industrial Estate
AMK Industrial Estate
Woodlands Industrial Park E (4)
(note LE is located within the housing estate in Woodlands)
Yishun Industrial Park
MarsilingIndustrial Estate (3)
Sungei Kadut Instrial Esatate (2)
and many more examples,
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Now not talent anymore on Sat, 27th Feb 2010 10:24 pm
///Thank you very much…….. now i know i dont have original sin///
It’s original, protected by copyright law?
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So no sin? we dun have to go to hell? Great!.
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KopitiamApek on Sat, 27th Feb 2010 11:36 pm wrote :
///Thank you very much…….. now i know i dont have original sin///
It’s original, protected by copyright law?
As per
@ Christian on Sat, 27th Feb 2010 5:00 pm
@ I Tread The Middle Path on Sat, 27th Feb 2010 5:20 pm
@ Christian on Sat, 27th Feb 2010 5:32 pm
These three learned scholars, invented their thiology , to declare that we (none-JEWs) are not decendents of ADAM and EVE, so we do not share the original sin.
Actually, i dont know if it can even be copy-righted ??
These 3 great Thiologeans have overlook:
Genesis 3:20 Adam named his wife EVE, because she was the mother of all human heings.
Ummmmmmm, now the bible say, EVE is the mother of all human beings, and at that time, on the surface of earth, only ADAM, EVE and CAIN….
guess who did cain sleep with ???
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Now not talent anymore on Sun, 28th Feb 2010 12:00 am
are we talking about Desperate Housewifes ?
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■kwailan on Sat, 27th Feb 2010 11:44 pm
///So no sin? we dun have to go to hell? Great!.///
WHY WORRY?
There are only two things in life to worry about:
Whether you are well
or whether you are sick.
If you are well,
then there is nothing to worry about.
But if you are sick,
there are only two things to worry about:
Whether you are going to get well or whether you are going to die.
If you get well,
then there is nothing to worry about.
But if you die,
there are only two things to worry about:
Whether you are going to go to heaven or whether you are going to go to hell.
If you go to heaven,
then you have nothing to worry about.
But if you go to hell,
you’ll be so busy shaking hands with all your friends,
that you won’t have time to worry!
So, Why Worry?
Be Happy!
~~ Author Unknown ~~
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“Thank you very much…….. now i know i dont have original sin (as a result of the stupidity of that brainless eve, who loves chatting so much with a talking snake)”
Haha..very funny..Eve with Chxx byx mouxx..love chatting..LOL..
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Not just one religion disapproves of homosexuality in singapore. Also, many atheists, agnostics or plain simple folk also disapprove of homosexuality.
This complaint to the police over Pastor Rony Tan’s sermon against homosexuality is just ‘cheng huo da jie’–robbing a house while it is on fire. The people who complained are so clearly hoping to get the same sympathetic treatment as the Buddhists. Fat hope.
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Genesis 1
P.27 “So God created man in his image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”
O.31 “And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”
Genesis 2
P. 2 “And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.”
P. 5 “And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, AND THERE WAS NOT A MAN TO TILL THE GROUND.”
P. 7 “And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul”.
P. 8 “And the LORD God planted eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.”
From the passages above it is very clear that the Bible states that God created man and woman on the sixth day. (Genesis chapter 1).
It then relates that God rested on the seventh day. And Adam was created AFTER the seventh day. (Genesis chapter 2). Thus it is very clear that God created man and woman on the sixth day, and Adam (and later Eve) were created much later (after he had rested on the seventh day). It meant that they were other human beings living on earth before the creation of Adam and Eve. A day in the Bible is not to be taken in the literal sense of day as we know it, but only a symbolic expression of phases.
In Peter chapter 2 P.3:8-9 “Do not forget one thing, dear friends: with the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.”
A lot of the quotes in the Bible carry symbolic expressions only and should not be taken for its literal sense. What “I Tread The Middle Path” said about the term “knowing” and “tree of knowledge” as they appeared in the Bible is correct. The original books of the Old Testament were copied from the Jewish Tanakh, and the term “knowing” and “knowledge” from their literal translation in Hebrew actually means “sexual union”. In Hebrew, the word “yada” (meaning “to know”) is an euphemism for sexual intercourse). So when it is said in Genesis chapter 4 P.1 that “Adam knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD” there should be no ambiguity on what is meant by the the word “knew”.
Let there be no further arguments on the intricacies contained in the Bible. It appears that most of the arguments contained in the comments on this thread relating to what is contained in the Bible and their meaning have not been understood by most people, especially those who have no grounding at all. For some they may treat the “stories” as fables, etc. That is perfectly alright. But even in fables, the real content of the “fables” should be presented in their actual form as they are presented in the book, and not plagiarised and edited with the inclusion of their own opinion and interpretation of the message.
I hope the above passages quoted from the Bible (King James Version) have sufficently cleared the air on a lot of misconception out there regarding the creation of man from the perspective of the Bible.
The object of this posting is not to argue whether God exists or Christianity is true or false. Rather, it is to portray what is being written in the Bible and how some of our readers are going tangent writing a lot of material that do not reflect what is actually being contained in the Bible. The points raised by “Christian” and “I Tread The Middle Path” are correct in as far as their depiction of them being contained in the Bible is concerned.
Thank you.
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@KopitiamAhpek
I do not mean to be rude or discourteous to you. But I think you should read up fully on Genesis (Old Testament) first before you make those comments about what I (and “I Tread The Middle Path”) have wrote earlier.
The part regarding “all men are sinners” is a concept borne after the advent of Christ, which is the theme in the books contained in the New Testament. Please do not get confused with the Old and the New Testament.
The Old Testament is taken from the Jewish Tanakh (Judaism) wherein Genesis is a gynaecological tree of the family tree of the Jewish people, starting from Adam down all the way to Abraham and his descendants (Abraham had an elder son Ismael from whom the Arabs descended, while his Jews descended from his other son Isaac).
The New Testament contained books written after the advent of Christ (originating from his disciples). The difference is that Christ brought the message of the New Covenant made by God (and that is why they are known as the New Testament). It is basically that Christ (as God coming as man, being son of man – Joseph) came to the world to die for their sins, and that whosoever believed in him (Christ) shall be reconciled with God (i.e. have eternal life).
A lot of people (even some Christians) believe and thought that heaven is somewhere up there. And this is very erroneous. Christ made it very clear that heaven is not somewhere in outer space stratosphere, etc.
In Luke 17:21 Christ said it very clearly that “Neither shall they say, Lo here! or lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” It is very clear that the kingdom of God (heaven) is not a physical place.
Sorry to our non-Christian readers out there that I have to relate some Christian ideology here. I had previously refrained from doing so earlier because I wanted my comments to be secular in nature. However, it appears that there are still some misconceptions about Christianity despite my secular explanations earlier, so it would be better if that some Christian ideology be brought in to substantiate my earlier points. In any case, I made sure there are no excesses, as I am not preaching any sermon. I hope my intention will not be misconstrued.
Thank you.
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@Now not talent anymore
My comments and those of “I Tread The Middle Path” are not based on my own ideology. You are mistaken. Please read my explanation addressed to @KopitiamAhpek above.
There is no distortion of Christian ideology in my thread. I would invite you read up some of the books in the Bible just to verify what I said. If you were to read them objectively, and try and understand what is being written, you will find more enlightenment on the subject.
Thank you.
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@ Christian on Sat, 27th Feb 2010 5:32 pm
/// Please do not listen to all those pseudo Christians and those with little knowledge of the Bible spout all the nonesense. You should know who the professor of misinformation is on this forum.///
Dear Christian
You are the very reason why Christianity is unpalatable to me. Elsewhere I have written that I studied both Christianity and Buddhism. I won’t and never claim I am expert in either or the ‘professor’ as you have labelled. In fact, I try not to quote from the scriptures like as though they are the ABSOLUTE TRUTH. There are many Christians like Christian who can quote the bible selectively to suit and back whatever they want others to believe. And Christian said: “do not listen ….”, implying that his voice is the only truth, everybody else is spouting nonsense.
Reading through the bible, I found so many contradictions, half-truths, condemnations, fairy tales, self-serving incidents, and miracles that were hard to believe. On the other hand, there are good spiritual messages. I have no issue with the spiritual part – love, forgiveness, the golden rule, not stealing, not lying, and so forth.
Noah & the Ark and the Garden of Eden are like any great fables (eg. Aseops’) meant to carry a certain message. The tales are not to be taken literally and dogmatically. If Christian and others can tell me what the message(s) is/are, then I can accept. But to tell me there literally was a pair of animals, each kind that God created and they survived 40days/nights in high sea, then I can only feel winds in my hairs!
Genesis was a work about ‘The Beginning’. It was an attempt to explain how this ‘universe’ [generations of heavens and the earth] began. Note: ‘generations of heavens’ = ?? stars, moons, suns, planets, asteroids ? ‘the earth’ = this man-inhabited planet?
Quoting Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. Note the keywords – ‘man’, ‘created him’, and ‘male and female’. In other words, ‘man’ was a hermaphrodite.
Quoting Genesis 2:7 then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east; and there he put the man whom he had formed. Who was that ‘man’ God put in the garden in Eden?
I have heard more stories and interpretations of the Garden of Eden. Genesis itself has contradictory parts. Of course, to Christian, he won’t accept and I don’t expect him to accept. The ‘believe’ thingy is a strange phenomenon. People believed in all kinds of ‘things’ – physical and metaphysical.
A truth requires no belief at all. A truth cannot be disputed. A truth does not need proof. A truth cannot be contradicted. A truth needs no miracle. A truth requires no one to scripture it. Living organisms require nutrients for sustenance. This is a truth. Does it require belief? Can it be contradicted? Is this found in the scripture?
Hmm … who is giving misinformation?
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@Christian on Sat, 27th Feb 2010 5:00 pm
/// aah haa
You are grossly mistaken. ///
My reply in square brackets.
/// God created Adam because there was no one to till god’s garden. Adam was created to tend the garden of Eden.///
[Did you forget to quote the specific verses in Genesis? Why would god need someone to tend to his creation – the garden of Eden? To cut grass, water the plants, put shit as fertiliser? Who is going to tend the Amazon forest?]
/// He then made Eve (out of Adam’s rib) because he wanted a companion for him. ///
[Companion to talk to or to make love? The snake could talk, god could talk, and there were animals. In fact, animals make the best companions. Have you heard anyone divorcing their animal companions?]
//// Elsewhere in the Bible it was also recorded that created men and women in his likeness (not Adam or Eve but other humans). ///
[Elsewhere meant it was ‘repeated’. Since you believed in the Genesis, you must take Genesis as the first proclamation that God created man NOT woman in his likeness (please go read the bible). “not Adam & Eve but other humans.” What are other humans? Chinese, Indians – Red, Black, White? From other posts, 'other humans' are non-Jews. So, Jews are a special race, a separate creation of God? Are you Jews? If not why do you believed in Judaism? Would you marry a non-Jew?]
/// Your shallowness in Bible knowledge is the typical example of the run-of-the-mill people who only know superficial stuff and take them to be the only truth there is, because that is the only truth they know. ///
[Superficial people don’t take the Bible as the only truth, they know there are Other Truths. Only shallow people believed in One Truth]
I have debunked your statements and allegations. Try to rebut the following:
A truth requires no belief at all.
A truth cannot be disputed.
A truth does not need proof.
A truth cannot be contradicted.
A truth needs no miracle.
A truth has no other point of view.
A truth requires no scripture to support it.
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aah-haa on Sun, 28th Feb 2010 7:29 am
if I may add to your list
A truth requires no 2010 years of trying to prove it is so to non believers.
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You have to recognise that there are alot of retards who use many different nicks to post to show “numbers”, so don’t waste your precious time arguing to no end. Brain dead.
Just take a look at the current poll votes TR is conducting online. There are actually 33 brain dead retards who believe that we have the BEST talents in government in the WORLD, not in Toa Payoh or CCk or Batam but the WORLD! Wow. How to fight with such idiocy? Pointless.
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Aah-haa
I think you are digressing. As an independent reader here, I think your writing suggests to me that you like to win arguments, and will find all kinds of reasons to debunk others’ points, regardless of whether there is any merit in your writing.
Those may be fables to you, but they constitute a legacy in writing to the people for whom the records were made for. Just because your level of understanding is not up to the standard required to digest their meaning does not mean that they are fables.
Do you know that with the advent of Thermonuclear science,i.e. Quantum Physics, scientists are now beginning to have a clearer perspective and understanding to the lines of creation stated in Genesis?
And their interpretation of what they think of some of the abstract references contained therein ?
a) “The earth was without form, and void” – It was stated that it was void but without form, i.e. that there was something but it had no form (or substance). For the interpretation and philosophy of form and substances refer to Plato in his discourse.
b) “And darkness was upon the face of the deep” – What was this darkness? They now understand that it was referring to a black hloe. Why is this so? Because it was “upon the face of the deep”, i.e. matter contained in the black hole are so dense and therefore deep.
c) “And God said let there be light; and there was light” – the scientists equate this with the Big Bang Theory, with an initial explosion that spew out all the matter in the original big hole from which the universe (at first without form) came to be and expanded outwards. Even today, this process of expansion is still continuing, i.e. still expanding. This is verifiable proof from instruments of science observed and explained from Doppler’s Effect (any object that is moving from the point of observation leaves a signature that has a reddish tinge in the colour spectrum).
Even Einstein believed that “God did not play with dice”, i.e. that there is a creator for everything, the universe, etc, and the way matter interacts at specific points requiring very precise interaction and combination of circumstance meant that these were not acts of chances, but well calibrated by a creator.
I do not wish to engage you in any arguments or further discussion. My intention is that there are a lot of things out there which we do not yet understand, but with time, mankind’s level of understanding will change as new situations arises, etc.
So you are entitled to your beliefs that those were fabled in the class of Aesop’s. But that does not mean that they were, they are just merely so at your level of understanding. And it appears you are stating them to be so not only due to your lack of understanding, but also because you would stoop to discredit and debunk Christians at the slightest opportunity you can find.
Do you realise I have read so many of your threads elsewhere, and you always like to have the last say on all things Christian (with a slant in criticising Christianity for the sake of criticising). You are always imposing your views on others, that yours are always the correct views. I think there was one reader somewhere else who also noticed and said this earlier.
Whatever the case, please show some respect to other people’s views, and accept that not everybody sees things the way you do. Others may be right or they may be wrong. AND SO DO YOU.
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Questions. Where the hell did the talking snake (satan) come from? How did it landed on eden?
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Christian on Sun, 28th Feb 2010 5:11 am
‘I do not mean to be rude or discourteous to you. ‘
Thank you for being courteous. I appreciate that. That is one of the teachings all world religions strive to instill in their believers. BTW, many atheists are courteous too, as I posted before, one do not require a religion to know right from wrong.
——–
The movie trilogy, Matrix, describes a future in which reality as perceived by humans is actually the Matrix: a simulated reality created by sentient machines to pacify and subdue the human population.
“What is “real”? How do you define “real”?
“Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream, Neo? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? ”
“The Matrix is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.”
“What you know you can’t explain, but you feel it. You’ve felt it your entire life, that there’s something wrong with the world. You don’t know what it is, but it’s there, like a splinter in your mind, driving you mad.”
“Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself.”
“If real is what you can feel, smell, taste and see, then ‘real’ is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain.”
“The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you’re inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inert, so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it.”
“There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path.”
——
Which lead me to try to understand what you wrote, I quote them here….
” If you were to read them objectively, and try and understand what is being written, you will find more enlightenment on the subject.”
” Your shallowness in Bible knowledge is the typical example of the run-of-the-mill people who only know superficial stuff and take them to be the only truth there is, because that is the only truth they know. ”
Which I will respond by saying our view of the world depend on what planet we are on. Someone posted here saying that some text in the religious books are not to be taken literally, so as such, it will be prone to subjectivity on 2 levels. One when is it to be taken literally and when not. And when it is not to be taken literally, how do you resolve the subjectivity?
” I had previously refrained from doing so earlier because I wanted my comments to be secular in nature. However, it appears that there are still some misconceptions about Christianity despite my secular explanations earlier, ”
I am doubful if one can be truly secular in explantions for religious texts. Again, your view of the world depends on which planet you are on.
Which Kenz put it and I quote him “If this is not cherry-picking theology, i dont know what is.”
So we are back to square on.
“What is “real”? How do you define “real”?
If we are content with what we are comfortable with, use it as own spiritual compass, all will be fine, because they are to make us to be a good person.
But the problem arises when one wants to shaft his belief system down the throat of the rest of the population, believing that their version is the only “real” thingy, which has been going on forever, and which will continue to go on, until the cow come home, give birth to many “cowlets” , leave the farm and die, this cow pay cow bu will not cease.
So what is real?
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Talking Snake on Sun, 28th Feb 2010 11:38 am
The sg zoo lost a snake
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@Talking Snake
Good question. At least you ask rational question.
I believe a lot of what is written in the books in the Old Testament, could have been “imported” from events depicted in the early Sumerian text, the Enuma Elish. I guess we will never know.
But probably to hazard a probable answer (if these text from the early works of the Bible were indeed Sumerian based), the snake would be the symbolic representation of their goddess Ninhursag, who was the goddess of fertility, hence the mother of earth. The Caduceus (symbol of medicine) was thought to have originated from the Greek god Hermes, who was believed to have evolved from Ningishzida, descendant of Ninhursag (god of mother earth). This symbol, the Caduceus, is depicted as having 2 snakes intertwined and wrapped around the staff of Iris (Egyptian representation of Ninhursag). The snake, was, therefore, thought to be a symbol or associated with medicine and reproduction (e.g. the genome in our DNA profile is exactly like that – intertwining chromosomes).
This snake symbolism has been contained in ancient cultural artifacts of the early Sumerian (and later Babylonia) civilisations, and later carried on by the Greeks. So far, on record, there has been no other official secular explanation of how, where, and when, this symbol of snake came to be. A lot of references contained in the Bible are symbolic only and not to be taken in its literal form.
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I was merely defending my faith in as far as the scriptures in the Bible have been misquoted and made fun of by others. Certainly I am not a retard, nor am I out to create “numbers” as suggested by Avatar.
There are a lot of other readers out there, some may agree with what has been written in the page here, while others may not. And not everyone has written in to respond. But when they do, we should not deride their remarks.
Everyone has a point to make, and that is why to contribute their comments. It is what is conveyed in them that is important. If their comments misrepresents the text from which they were taken, then such errors need to be pointed out and corrected.
I will not post any further comments hereafter because I do not wish to be misconstrued yet again.
Thank you all.
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“Aah-Haa
Allow me to explain why you find it so difficult to understand the text from the Bible. The best way to answer you is to provide it through another question :
How can a Primary Six student understand the text contained in Quantum Physics ? He may be able to read it, but does he understand what he is reading?
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Christian on Sun, 28th Feb 2010 2:16 pm
There is no need to defend what you believe. What other believe is what others believe. What you belive is what you believe.
I think many would just leave the holy book and its interpretation alone for the believers to interprete it in whatever way they deem fit as so long as the believers not try to shaft it at their face and demonise them for not believing. That is the crux of the matter.
Read my last 2 para @KopitiamApek on Sun, 28th Feb 2010 12:38 pm
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Jeff @ 28 Feb 2:16 p.m.
Very well said. One may read everything book they have in the library. But reading is one thing, understanding what is being read is totally another thing altogether.
I agree your reference to “aah haa” not being able to understand fully what he read to be very reflective on the views and comments he made through so many of his postings here. He certainly appears to have misunderstood a lot of points.
But then, I have no right to judge him or any other readers who have made their contribution here.
I only wish he can stop his rantings here and allow others to present their views here without him interrupting and presenting his interpretation of what others have said. I, for one, would like to read views from other readers.
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All Religions, Jeff and Christian.
There’s no wrong or right with opinion or interpretation for that matter.
But its a different matter when you are trying to argue based on logic and facts.
From religion standpoint, all those interpretations be it from Intelligent Design or using pseudo-quantum physics to explain the bible, is fine.
But from scientific point of view, all these are just speculations that cannot be proven let along to be adopted widely.
Therefore, whatever in the bible, as inerrant to you it maybe should only be restricted to the usage in your congregation/community.
What it teaches should not be imposed on others.
But if you insisted on imposing on others or in secular world, then prove it on the equal platform as other facts. ie scientifically.
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Kenz on Sun, 28th Feb 2010 8:21 pm
Like when the angmos find our favourite durian yakky. We do not go arguing with them that it must be nice.
But what we really do, we prefer to enjoy the fruit, since they do not appreciate it, all the better. No huge demand to drive up the prices.
But sadly, some people just do not think in that way. They say ‘durian’ is the only correct fruit, all the rest are false fruits.
So that why there is a problem.
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Whatever the belief, postulate or contention, if facts and new discoveries make them more and more plausible or true with the passage of time, there is no harm in continuing to believe in them.
But conversely, if new discoveries and scientific revelations make any previous beliefs irrational and ridiculous, it would be either the height of idiocy or utter dishonesty to continue with such beliefs.
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@Kenz
Yo. ‘All Religion..’ ‘Christian’ and ‘Jeff’ DID NOT try to impose their views on others. You have gone on the wrong note my friend. Please re-read their posts. They are very clear to me.
There is no ramming down of values unto other people’s throat. They were responding to criticisms by “Aah haa” (I think) with explanations not imposing their views on others. The one doing the ramming of throats is actually “Aah-haa” who seems to attack the views of others if they don’t share the same note. Now that’s imposing on others their own view.
I think you should be directing your comments to “aah haa” instead.
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Excuse me, @kenz, how come you not writing under your other pen name @aah-haa, or @avatar this time?
You can fool others but you can’t fool me. LOL !
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Jeff on Sun, 28th Feb 2010 11:33 am
/// Do you realise I have read so many of your threads elsewhere, and you always like to have the last say on all things Christian (with a slant in criticising Christianity for the sake of criticising). You are always imposing your views on others, that yours are always the correct views. I think there was one reader somewhere else who also noticed and said this earlier.
Whatever the case, please show some respect to other people’s views, and accept that not everybody sees things the way you do. Others may be right or they may be wrong. AND SO DO YOU.////
Thank you for reading many of my posts in this and other threads. A forum like this is a wonderful opportunity and medium for all netizens to articulate their minds whether as readers or contributors. It does not matter whether one is independent, member of some club gay or otherwise, professing a religion, black or white, primary 6 education or PhD. I don’t know why posters need to mention this. Might as well tell me how many dogs or cats one has.
A forum is for presenting/articulating opinions and points of views. One has to be naïve to think that every opinion or viewpoint has to be absolute right or wrong. In supporting a view you state why you agree. In opposing a view you state why you disagree. There are many posts whose views I agree and there are those I have no comment. Those that I have reasons to disagree and can debunk, I will engage.
And for those who make allegations bordering on ‘persona’ and not my views or statements deserved severe unreserved retorts and rebuttals from me.
I find it so childish when posters don’t debunk my statements when they disagreed but instead say things like “you are always out to win arguments’, ‘imposing your views’, ’you are criticising others especially Christians’, ‘you are always correct’. Every thread has a theme or subject. The thread is not about me. So why are posters pointing fingers – you, your?
‘Show some respect’ – what does that mean? Does it mean I must agree with your comments? Keep quiet? It is a demand/command? Are you an elder? Or you have nothing to defend and use ‘respect’ as a way out?
Let’s put it this way: anyone who comes into this forum EXPECTING respect, agreement, no rebuttal, no criticism – might as well go to heaven because any forum is one hell of a hot place! Didn’t they say “if you cannot stand the heat, get out of the kitchen’?
Why don’t you rebut or debunk the points I made in my replies to Christian?
[As for Christian I can accept that he/she is trying to defend his/her faith. His/her sincerity is commendable.]
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@ Avatar on Sun, 28th Feb 2010 10:53 am
/// You have to recognise that there are alot of retards who use many different nicks to post to show “numbers”, so don’t waste your precious time arguing to no end. ///
I have noticed that unlike other blogs which require some form of registration, here in TR anyone can just scam a name (nick) and make a posting. The same ‘retards’ could be using multiple or different nicks.
Well …. hiding or masquerading is a technique employed by the cowards a long time ago. I don’t see any intelligence or anything progressive. Hence, you called them ‘retards’. By using multiple and different nicks, the same retards give the impression that there are many ‘supporters’.
Personally, I am not bothered. It is actually quite easy to spot these fakes or proxies. The appropriate treatment is to simply ignore. So you are right to say “don’t waste your precious time” with imposters, fakers, and proxies.
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I do not know what Richard Lu and his gang of vociferous gays are trying to do?
Do that not understand that PM Lee have clearly lay down OB markers for the gay community and theat they should not be pushng their own agenda.
To quote somebody before, the practice of homosexuality is wrong from all accounts, legal, societal, medical, spirutual.
Personal opinion, being personal depends on your values and sexual inclination and does not form the majority opinion of the populace in Singapore.
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Beware ass hole bandits!! – 24 years jail and 24 caning. if you like to screw ass hole ..do so with bot consenting adult not lurking in the dark to lure decent young people into your crazy world! Only devil lurk in the darkness of the hour!
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The greatest societal spectre is to see rectum copulation by rogues everywhere – in public toilets, hdb staircases, shopping mall fire escape staircases or even in parks, etc.
Such rogue deviants must be severely punished, preferably jailed as an absolute deterence.
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@ WhataJoke on Mon, 1st Mar 2010 9:54 am
You Wrote : “To quote somebody before, the practice of homosexuality is wrong from all accounts, legal, societal, medical, spirutual.”
In singapore, HOMOSEXUALITY is not wrong from medical and legal ground.
s377a refers to anal sex, it did not say, Homosexuality is a crime, to be punished such-and-such.
On medical ground, HOMOSEXUALITY is not even a medical illness, MOH adopts the ICD-10 (WHO) and DSM-IV-TR (APA) as the criteria of diagnosis. For 35 years, all our government hospital had NOT admitted a single case of “Homosexuality”, simply, there is no diagnosis code at all.
For your information, the medical and scientific community had thrown out “Homosexuality” as an illness. The prevailing opinion is HOMOSEXUALITY is NORMAL
POSITION STATEMENT of American Psychiatric Association in 2002 regarding
“Adoption and Co-parenting of Children by Same-sex Couples”
http://www.psych.org/Departments/EDU/Library/APAOfficialDocumentsandRelated/PositionStatements/200214.aspx
Numerous studies over the last three decades consistently demonstrate that children raised by gay or lesbian parents exhibit the same level of emotional, cognitive, social, and sexual functioning as children raised by heterosexual parents.
This research indicates that optimal development for children is based not on the sexual orientation of the parents, but on stable attachments to committed and nurturing adults.
The research also shows that children who have two parents, regardless of the parents’ sexual orientations, do better than children with only one parent.
While some states have approved legislation sanctioning second parent adoption, other court judgments and legislation have prohibited lesbian women and gay men from adopting or co-parenting.
Therefore, in most of the United States, only one partner in a committed gay or lesbian couple may have a legal parental relationship to a child they are raising together.
Adoption by a second parent, however, would not only formalize a child’s existing relationships with both parents in a same-sex couple, it would also provide vital security for the child.
Children could avail themselves of both parents’ health insurance benefits, access to medical care, death benefits, inheritance rights, and child support from both parents in the event of separation. Adoption protects both parents’ rights to custody and/or visitation if the couple separates or if one parent dies.
The American Psychiatric Association has historically supported equity, parity, and non-discrimination regarding legal issues affecting mental health.
In 2000, APA supported the legal recognition of same sex unions and their associated legal rights, benefits, and responsibilities.
APA has also supported efforts to educate the public about homosexuality and the mental health needs of lesbian women, gay men, and their families.
Removing legal barriers that adversely affect the emotional and physical health of children raised by lesbian and gay parents is consistent with the goals of the APA.
The American Psychiatric Association supports initiatives which allow same-sex couples to adopt and co-parent children and supports all the associated legal rights, benefits, and responsibilities which arise from such initiatives.
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WhataJoke on Mon, 1st Mar 2010 9:54 am
“I do not know what Richard Lu and his gang of vociferous gays are trying to do?”
Sir, if you have been following the article and the postings you will find that :
a. I have emphatically stated that I am not a gay and have no agenda;
b. I am liberal and if you look at the article it is about recognizing the rights of the LGBTs in liberal democracies. Singapore will, in time, be democratized and let us hope we go liberal in the process.
c. Please see PM LHL’s comments in Parliament and ask ourselves if we should recognize the rights of the LGBTs and abolish 337A. Singapore is a first world country but with third world rules. Why have this law when we know the authorities are closing both eyes?
d. Has the decriminalization of homosexual acts been detrimental in say Denmark, Switzerland, United States, Canada, Australia, etc.? Aren’t these some of the best places to live in the world while we are no. 70 in the Quality of Life Index?
e. The intention of the article is to stimulate meaningful discussion. Your comments do not contribute to good discussions. Subject matter contributed? Zero. Your posting seems more a personal attack on the writer. It appears that you are either a bigot or zealot.
f. Sorry but we have established that it is neither a wrong nor a right. Homosexuality is a personal choice. Like all personal choices (e.g. smoking and gambling) is up to the individual(s). Is it wrong for you to enjoy the company of prostitutes or refuse to take medicine for your illness? These are personal choices aren’t they?
Society should be more concerned about the prostitution, rapes, incest, abortions, religious bigotry etc. Do you understand?
g. “To quote somebody before, the practice of homosexuality is wrong from all accounts, legal, societal, medical, spirutual.”
Sir, you are wrong on all counts. Please be more informed before you make a statement like this.
Harry TomDick on Mon, 1st Mar 2010 10:27 am
aware on Mon, 1st Mar 2010 10:08 am
Yes, these are crimes against society and criminals should be punished. Singaporeans must differentiate crimes from “personal choices”.
I stress again – I am not gay and never have been one. I too am puzzled over the sexual orientations of the LGBTs. But we must never deny them their rights, freedom and choice or discriminate against them for otherwise we would have taken a huge step backwards in human liberation.
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@ aware on Mon, 1st Mar 2010 10:08 am
SINGAPORE – A Singapore court has sentenced a man who raped his younger sister to 13 years in jail, a media report said Saturday.
The now 21-year-old brother, who was not named to protect the victim’s identity, started to rape his sister, now 16, when both shared a bedroom in 2005 or 2006, the Straits Times newspaper reported.
He repeatedly raped his sister, the youngest of three siblings in the family, until 2007 when the girl eventually left home to live with her then-boyfriend.
The teenage girl did not reveal the abuse until April last year, the report said.
Her brother was also ordered to be caned 15 strokes.
Straight and pussyhole bandit..watch out…!!! Good that this pastor stand on one issue and when ISD call him up, quickly LL kena sai APOLOGISE and now say completely different thing firmly!
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Just a diversion, look at this:
Liberalism, atheism, male sexual exclusivity linked to IQ
http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/02/26/liberals.atheists.sex.intelligence/
I think the research by a psychologist from the London School of Economics and Political Science is very appropriate for the debate here!
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To Now not talent :
Your quouting of your medical studies is a joke.
It’s well known that these studies are influenced by the strong Gay Lobby and activists in the US and they are biased.
There are absolutely no evidence of a gay gene despite extensive mapping of the human genome by Dr Collins.
I can quote equal medical evidence to support that being Gays are NOT INBORNED.
Go to the NARTH homepage: http://www.narth.com.
Of course the usual gay responese to this would be nosense as their OWN medicial studies have proven otherwise.
Thus, if you look at it hoslictically, there are absolutely no conclusive evidence that homosexuality is supported by medical evidence.
For scoietal point of view, it is wrong. Majority of Singaporeans do not support this. Most religions do not think that homsoexuality is right.
From a bioliogical point of view, the anus is not created for sex. You would have known this in basic biology lesson.
If Darwin theory of evolution hold true, the existence of a gay gene will means that it would not hold water…as gays would be earmark for extinction being not able to procreate.
From the legal standpoint, you know what happens if you are caught doing same sex ANAL butting
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To Richard Lu.
My response in brackets
c. Please see PM LHL’s comments in Parliament and ask ourselves if we should recognize the rights of the LGBTs and abolish 337A. Singapore is a first world country but with third world rules. Why have this law when we know the authorities are closing both eyes?
[ A law is a law. it will stand in a court of law. It does not matter if the authorities are closing both eyes. The fact it is there means the authorities can choose to apply it anytime and open their eyes if the gay activism get too strong. PM message is simple. Gays , do your things in private...if you try to promote and create issues, then its a different story.]
d. Has the decriminalization of homosexual acts been detrimental in say Denmark, Switzerland, United States, Canada, Australia, etc.? Aren’t these some of the best places to live in the world while we are no. 70 in the Quality of Life Index?
[Yes, it have been. For one, children of heterosexual parents are FORCED to attend gay "appreciation" courses even though their parents are vehemently against it. Parents are also charged for not letting their children attend. I believe you also know AWARE tried to do something devious like that not too long ago, or did your memory fail you at the most opportune time}
e. The intention of the article is to stimulate meaningful discussion. Your comments do not contribute to good discussions. Subject matter contributed? Zero. Your posting seems more a personal attack on the writer. It appears that you are either a bigot or zealot.
[ The motive of your message at this point of time raises serious doubts on what you are trying to do. Only you yourself know your deepest desires. It is common for gays to call others zealot or bigot when others do not agree with their perverted views. This is evident form the history of gay activism in Western countries]
f. Sorry but we have established that it is neither a wrong nor a right. Homosexuality is a personal choice. Like all personal choices (e.g. smoking and gambling) is up to the individual(s). Is it wrong for you to enjoy the company of prostitutes or refuse to take medicine for your illness? These are personal choices aren’t they?
{ FYI, your reference to “we” means only yourself and the gay community ? . I am sure it does not represent the views of mainstream Singapore or your you so presumptious to say so ?
So are you saying that since gambling and smoking and protitituion and homsexuality are personally choice, you would help to promote them ? It say so much on your moral values by this simple sentence. Don’t you know by being a journalist, you should have a sense of moral responisbility? When did it go ? Into the bin ? ]
Society should be more concerned about the prostitution, rapes, incest, abortions, religious bigotry etc. Do you understand?
[ Huh, is that your personal opinion again or are you representing mainstream Singapore again. I am confused. ]
g. “To quote somebody before, the practice of homosexuality is wrong from all accounts, legal, societal, medical, spirutual.”
Sir, you are wrong on all counts. Please be more informed before you make a statement like this.
[ Really , wrong on ALL accounts through your colored glasses ? How well do you know mainstream Singaporeans values...From the way you write, I suspect absolutely zero.]
I stress again – I am not gay and never have been one. I too am puzzled over the sexual orientations of the LGBTs. But we must never deny them their rights, freedom and choice or discriminate against them for otherwise we would have taken a huge step backwards in human liberation.
[ Only you know truely your own orientation. People have their reasons for staying in the closet. Let the readers decide]
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To Richard Lu, my response in []
You said
Look at these “freaks” of nature -
Protandry: an organism is born as a male, and then changes sex to a female e.g. clownfish
[ Does a male gay changes sex to a female lesbain and vice versa ? This example is completely groundless.]
Protogyny: the organism starts life as a female, and then changes sex to a male e.g. wrasses
{ Does it happen in a gay human ? Again, example is groundless]
A simultaneous (or synchronous) hermaphrodite: is an adult organism that has both male and female sexual organs at the same time. Usually, self-fertilization does not occur e.g. snails.
Are these creatures wrong? Are they not natural? If there is a god, did he designed these freaks this way?
[ These animals are not wrong. It is programmed in their genes ? But there is NO gay gene. I repeat, no GAY gene being discovered. ]
Now try understanding man, the most complex of creatures ! What is more when we get a gay or lesbian or bi-sexual or trans-sexual !
[ looks are your thoughts are certainly warped from the examples you are quoting. ]
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WhataJoke on Mon, 1st Mar 2010 2:18 pm
Sir,
This is NOT a Richard Lu vs. WhataJoke forum. Your points have been discussed and I feel it is pointless to go over covered grounds. You are contribution to date is zero – nothing except aggravations and hate.
I do not know what the LGBTs have done to you that you are so dead set against them that you will not even recognize their rights to their choices??? Have they raped you???
And I repeat – I am not gay and I am not promoting gay activism. None in my family is gay. If you keep saying that I am gay-inclined or gay-closeted when I keep repeating that I am not, then you should have the forum to yourself. It is difficult if not impossible to discuss with zealots and bigots.
WhataJoke on Mon, 1st Mar 2010 3:07 pm
a. [ Does a male gay changes sex to a female lesbain and vice versa ? This example is completely groundless.]
b. B.[ These animals are not wrong. It is programmed in their genes ? But there is NO gay gene. I repeat, no GAY gene being discovered. ]
c. [ looks are your thoughts are certainly warped from the examples you are quoting. ]
Look at the big picture. What I have said is that freaks of nature do occur, groundless or not. Is there such a thing as a “gay gene”? I don’t know. Do you? I am hoping from this forum to learn but not with your “I told you so. You are wrong. Take it from me I know best. ” attitude.
If you feel you have an axe to grind with the LBGTs this is NOT the forum. Sounds like you are from a Christian group, vociferous, vocal and hell bent to put everyone else down who does not agree with your beliefs.
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To Richard Lu,
My respnese in [ ]
This is NOT a Richard Lu vs. WhataJoke forum.
{ his is certainly not a Richard Lu vs WahaJoke forum. Hwever, if you could voiced your PERSONAL opinion on a public online tabloid, I am sure you are not stopping me my similar rights to do so ? ]
I do not know what the LGBTs have done to you that you are so dead set against them that you will not even recognize their rights to their choices??? Have they raped you???
[ Why are you so agitated ? Have I strike a raw nerve. Have some composure to debate logically, please. Why demean the gays by saying they rape me ? ]
It is difficult if not impossible to discuss with zealots and bigots.
[ as i said, it is common practise for gay activists to call people names such as bigots and zealots when they don't get their ways. That is one way of humiliating the other party to force them to retract tehir stand. A well-known and often effective tactic, i must say ]
Look at the big picture. What I have said is that freaks of nature do occur, groundless or not.
[ I do not think those examples you cited are freaks of nature. It is not the correct examples to cite at all, similar to the wrong bible verse you cite to support your stand. Because those evidences you cited in the animal kingdom never occur in humans. Zilch. So you are just liberally drawing unsubstantiated correlation between those animals and humans. To draw on your ananlogy, the black widow spider eats her mate after copulation, so are you saying it would be natural for wives to eat their husbands after sex ???]
Is there such a thing as a “gay gene”? I don’t know. Do you? I am hoping from this forum to learn but not with your “I told you so. You are wrong. Take it from me I know best. ” attitude.
[ If you do not know whether there is a gay gene, why cite those examples as proofs ? A contradiction, isn't it ?]
If you feel you have an axe to grind with the LBGTs this is NOT the forum. Sounds like you are from a Christian group, vociferous, vocal and hell bent to put everyone else down who does not agree with your beliefs.
[ If you brav enough to write such an article, then you must be brave enough to stand up for your opinions and debate logically. Otherwise, you are just another wannabe journalist making a name for himself by blowing up contorversial issues. And please, keep your cool. DOn;t have to jump to conclusions that I am from a Christian group. Seems that you have very deep seated bias against Christians ]
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WhataJoke on Mon, 1st Mar 2010 4:50 pm
Sorry. I have nothing against Christians. I went to a Catholic school for my entire education in Singapore. Some of my best friends are Christians. I have nothing against Christians at all.
What I am upset are Christians with the “holier than thou” attitude and not allow others their space. They are not only up in arms against the other religions but tend to pick on the little people e.g. LBGTs.
Let me ask you – Do you have anything against gays or lesbians that you should deny them their right of choice??? Why should you be entitled to your choice but not the gays!
Look at the big picture. This article is not about prosecution of the LGBTs which is your narrow objective.
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@ WhataJoke on Mon, 1st Mar 2010 2:05 pm
You wrote : “Your quouting of your medical studies is a joke.
It’s well known that these studies are influenced by the strong Gay Lobby and activists in the US and they are biased.”
Dont disgrace yourself, NARTH ??? as compared with APA ???
American Psychiatric Association. vs NARTH !!!
Go ask anyone in the academics or medical communities.
You are really a joke.
Hello, do you know that APA is the Exit-examiners for all psychiatrist-in-training in USA ??
Meaning, once you pass their exit exam, you are a full fledge psychiatrist , and the liscence is for the entire USA.
(Even the psychiatrists of NARTH have to renew their liscence with APA yearly to continue the liscence)
If you are also not informed, APA is the external examiners for Singapore M.Med (Psy) exam.
In singapore, we practice a entrance exam, M.Med (Psy) part I and II qualify you to be a basic specialist, (this is called BST). After the exam, they can be registrar and senior registrar.
Singapore Government also sent our basic specialist for AST (under HMDP) to APA to received advance training. After which, they can be consultant and senior consultant.
If you think APA can be bullied into changing their stance, then why would Singapore Government accept APA as a world authority.
For a start, APA are professional body, And NUS Post-grad medical school invites them to hold exams for MMED (Psy) and this is a entry level exams, higher level than MBBS exam which only qualify successful examinee to be medical doctors.
The external examiners from APA, once they pass the our-candidates in MMed (Psy), they will be recognised by MOH-SMC AM to be a specialist. (but a junior specialist, such as registrar and senior registrar)
Moreover, every year, MOH sent specialist to ACOG, APA and AAP for HMDP (AST: advance specialist training) to train to become Consultants and Senior Consultants.
Sure, you need not trust my authority, BUT MOH and NUS trust these authorities. And it is prudent for the readers of these thread to know who APA is.
Do NUS or MOH uses NARTH ?? NO !!!
Does NARTH has any publication that the entire world uses ?? NO
APA published the DSM-IV-TR, for 50 years, this is the BIBLE for the entire psychiatric and psychology fratenity, this will list all the diagnositc criteria. Let me tell you, APA is not only USA authority, but the world authority of Psychiatry and Psychology.
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WhataJoke on Mon, 1st Mar 2010 2:05 pm
You wrote : ” There are absolutely no evidence of a gay gene despite extensive mapping of the human genome by Dr Collins.”
I doubt you even know what the Human Genome Programme is,
The programme attempt to do single nucleotide genome sequencing, ie for human, establish the C,G,A,T sequence of all the 24 chromosomes in human.
Hello, why 24 chromosomes ? Not 46 chromosomes ??
If you dont even know why 24 , then go back to do GENETIC 101.
Dr Collins International Human Genome programme only establish the sequence, it does not establish which sequence code for what.
For example, IHG programme completed in 2005, at that times, there are several Breast cancer genes not established yet.
In 2008, the oncologist suspect there are certain genes that may be responsible for breast cancer…….. then they use the IHG sequence to save time, because, the sequence is established. So new genes are discovered after that…… but Dr Collins IHG programme does not say what sequence responsible for what conditions.
Therefore, you are telling a lie about quotng Dr Collings IHG programme.
Further illustration: lets say, singapore police photographed all the buildings in singapore, but never say, which building is for what purpose.
Let say, some tip-off, give the police a picture, saying MasSelamet at a certain buildig, then police can go to their cataloque of photographs and determine, where MasSelamat may hide in
The police cannot say, because we have the photographs of all buildings in singapore, we know where MasSelamat is hiding. Geddit ?
Dont lie with your quack-science, You are a liar.
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WhataJoke on Mon, 1st Mar 2010 2:05 pm
To Now not talent :
Your quouting of your medical studies is a joke.
It’s well known that these studies are influenced by the strong Gay Lobby and activists in the US and they are biased.
There are absolutely no evidence of a gay gene despite extensive mapping of the human genome by Dr Collins.
I can quote equal medical evidence to support that being Gays are NOT INBORNED.
Go to the NARTH homepage: http://www.narth.com.
Of course the usual gay responese to this would be nosense as their OWN medicial studies have proven otherwise.
Thus, if you look at it hoslictically, there are absolutely no conclusive evidence that homosexuality is supported by medical evidence.
For scoietal point of view, it is wrong. Majority of Singaporeans do not support this. Most religions do not think that homsoexuality is right.
From a bioliogical point of view, the anus is not created for sex. You would have known this in basic biology lesson.
If Darwin theory of evolution hold true, the existence of a gay gene will means that it would not hold water…as gays would be earmark for extinction being not able to procreate.
From the legal standpoint, you know what happens if you are caught doing same sex ANAL butting
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@ WhataJoke on Mon, 1st Mar 2010 2:05 pm
You wrote : “Your quouting of your medical studies is a joke.
It’s well known that these studies are influenced by the strong Gay Lobby and activists in the US and they are biased.”
The Anti-Gay Homophobes like to say, the APA is high-jacked by gay-lobbist and activist, to remove the diagnosis of HOMOSEXUALITY from DSM in 1973.
Sorry, your argument does not hold water.
APA was recognised as world authority, and WHO borrowed the expertise of APA, Almost the entire world rely on the authority of APA.
If APA is so easily bullied into changing the opinion , they would not maintained their authoraty since then, Hello, 1973 -2010 37 years.
Look at what happen these 37 years? WHO adopted the decision (hello, WHO at geneve did not come under USA lobbist and activist attack)
And, if it is due to the lobbist effort, why would over 200 countries, national Ministry of Health adopt the decision ?? Hello, are you saying there are lobbyst at all the countries ??
WHO also independently come up with their ICD-10, for all illness.
Hello, WHO also do not list HOMOSEXUALITY as a disease in their ICD-10.
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@ WhataJoke on Mon, 1st Mar 2010 2:05 pm
You doubt the authority of American Psychiatric Association ?? You must be a joke.
Hello, do you know that APA is the Exit-examiners for all psychiatrist-in-training in USA ?? Meaning, once you pass their exit exam, you are a full fledge psychiatrist , and the liscence is for the entire USA.
Even the psychiatrist of NARTH has to go back to APA every year to extend their liscence. APA to all psychiatrist in USA is just like Singapore Medical Council to all doctors in singapore, and Academy of Medicine for all specialist in singapore.
So, you are saying NARTH has more authority than APA ?? What a joke, Today is 1st March, not 1st April.
If you are also not informed, APA is the external-examiners for Singapore M.Med (Psy) exam,
In singapore, we practice a entrance exam, M.Med (Psy) part I and II qualify you to be a basic specialist, (this is called BST). After the exam, they can be registrar and senior registrar.
Singapore Government also sent our basic specialist for AST (under HMDP) to APA to received advance training. After which, they can be consultant and senior consultant.
If you think APA can be bullied into changing their stance, then why would Singapore Government accept APA as a world authority.
For a start, APA is the professional body, And NUS Post-grad medical school invites them to hold exams for MMED (Psy) and this is a entry level exams, higher level than MBBS exam which only qualify successful examinee to be medical doctors.
These external examiners from APA,will assess our M.Med (psy) candidate, see if they possess adequate skills and knowledge to be called a psychiatrist. If these examiners from APA pass the examinees in MMed (Psy), then only will NUS-PostGradMedSchool confer the examinees the degree of M.Med (psy), which then will be recognised by MOH-SMC AM to be a specialist.
Moreover, every year, MOH sent specialist to ACOG, APA and AAP for HMDP (AST: advance specialist training) to train to become Consultants and Senior Consultants.
You are saying APA are not reliable ?? Please dont lie about medical facts.
Sure, you need not trust my authority, BUT MOH and NUS trust these authorities. And it is prudent for the readers of these thread to know who ACOG, APA, AAP are.
Why we cannot trust Praetorian or Too Concerned ?? Because they cut-and-paste articles written by NON-
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@ WhataJoke on Mon, 1st Mar 2010 2:05 pm
You wrote : “From a bioliogical point of view, the anus is not created for sex. You would have known this in basic biology lesson.”
***************************************
I took human anatomy class, histology class, pathology class.
Do you ??
What are the special feature, or histo-feature that allow an epithelium for sex . Can you tell me ??
If you dont know the science, dont be a quack.
Is the hand designed for masturbation ??
Is the mouth designed for sexual intercourse ??
Is the skin between the two breast designed for sexual intercourse ??
Is there any special feature
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@ WhataJoke on Mon, 1st Mar 2010 2:05 pm
YOU wrote : “Thus, if you look at it hoslictically, there are absolutely no conclusive evidence that homosexuality is supported by medical evidence.”
First, give me your conclusive evidence that HOMOsexuality is not supported by medical evidence I already give you the world authority of American Psychiatric Association…….
And you give a joke-liar NARTH ??
Dr. Nicholas Cummings : When I say that 67% had satisfactory outcomes, the majority of these were able to attain a more happy and sane homosexual life style with stable relationships.
This would have been a bit more than 10,000 of the 18,000 presenting, with another 2400 actually reorienting.
Hello, even Dr Nicholas Cummings dare not let another independent Psychiatrist to assess these 2400 cases to verify that they are actually reorientated,
Hello, 2400 / 18000 = 13.3% Success rate is 13.3%, not 67%.
About 1/3 of the 18,000 had unsuccessful outcomes (continued promiscuity, unhappiness, perpetually chasing after anonymous sex, drug addiction, etc.).
(source of data : NARTH and Dr Cummings, past president of American Psychological Association)
NARTH dont even dare to trumpet these 2400 case success.
2400 / 18000 = 13.33%
Unfortunately, psychologists Julie Harren and Nicholas Cummings et al have been doing reparative therapy, plus intensive prayers and church support groups , plus NARTH, FOTC and what you have , DESPITE SUCH INTENSIVE TREATMENT PROGRAMME in USA, how is the success rate ??? 13.33%
Worldwide psychiatrists, and psychologists denounce reparative therapy. It is unsupported by scientific evidence, and professionals consider it to be UNETHICAL !!!!
Singapore MOH announced that, Reparative Therapy is UNETHICAL, and ALL government hospital DO NOT offer reparative therapy to re-orientated the homosexuality. First, homosexuality is not a mental illness, Secondly, Reparative Therapy is UNETHICAL.
Now reader can see, NARTH is unethical to advocate reparative therapy.
13.3% success………. will you go for a treatment which is only 13.3% success ??
If dont treat is 50-50% ie cure or no cure…… why settle for a 13.33% which is not better than wild guess ???
Julie-Harren and Nicholas-Cummings never pray meh ??
FOTC and NARTH never pray meh ??
The god of Julie-Harren and Nicholas-Cummings never answer prayer meh?? Only let 13.33% change from GAY to Hetero….. Perhaps, their god intended the 86.67% to be gay ??
If the god of Julie and Nicholas decided to let the 86.67% not to be converted to heterosexuals, perhaps, this god will also not condemn them to hell.
Look about this, if intensive and concentrated “Reparative Therapy” cannot work to change homosexual into heterosexual, then casual exposure SUDDENLY become so effective and can confuse hetersexual into homosexual ???? You have so little confidence in your reparative therapy ???
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Dr Collins International Human Genomes Programme did not rule out the existence of A-SINGLE-MAJOR-GAY-GENE which is of the mendelian inheritence, nor rule out the possiblities of Multiple-Minor-GAY-GENE which is of the multifactorial inheritance.
First a simple example: Thalessemia major ….. this is a major autosommal recessive genes….. ie the Mendelian inheritance.
However, doctors do observe that, some Thal major live longer than others. Why so ??
because there is SALVAGE GENES……. these are multiple small genes, while they dont directly code for alpha-chain, or beta-chain of hemoglobin, these multifactorial SALVAGE GENES, works in other aspect, lets say, how much oxygen transfer, the membrane permeability, the RBC production rate etc etc……….
The programme attempt to do single nucleotide genome sequencing, ie for human, establish the C,G,A,T sequence of all the 24 chromosomes in human.
Dr Collins International Human Genome programme only establish the sequence, it does not establish which sequence code for what.
For example, IHG programme completed in 2005, at that times, there are several Breast cancer genes not established yet.
In 2008, the oncologist suspect there are certain genes that may be responsible for breast cancer…….. then they use the IHG sequence to save time, because, the sequence is established. So new genes are discovered after that…… but Dr Collins IHG programme does not say what sequence responsible for what conditions.
Therefore, you are telling a lie about quotng Dr Collings IHG programme.
Further illustration: lets say, singapore police photographed all the buildings in singapore, but never say, which building is for what purpose.
Let say, some tip-off, give the police a picture, saying MasSelamet at a certain buildig, then police can go to their cataloque of photographs and determine, where MasSelamat may hide in
The police cannot say, because we have the photographs of all buildings in singapore, we know where MasSelamat is hiding. Geddit ?
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In this regard, assuming intelligent beings created man and woman with genetic engineering and design knowledge, the very fact of the clever location of pubic hair to overcome friction during human copulation is testimony enough that the missionary position is one intended by them.
Thus, rectum copulation, fellatio, etc. are ‘extracurricular’ activities at best. At worst they are grossly rogue activities, especially smelly rectum copulation.
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Harry TomDick on Mon, 1st Mar 2010 7:15 pm
Dont make me laugh, that is not the purpose of pubic hair.
Ummmmm why do man has moustache ??
In this regard, assuming intelligent beings created man and woman with genetic engineering and design knowledge,
the very fact of the clever location of moustache is to overcome friction during cunnilingus of man mouth with female organsis testimony enough that the cunnilingus position is one intended by them.
Cunnilingus is the act of using the mouth, lips, and tongue to stimulate the female genitals. Derived from a vulgar Latin word for the vulva (cunnus) and the Latin word for tongue (lingua).
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@ Harry TomDick on Mon, 1st Mar 2010 7:15 pm
My bad, i am wrong, Dear HarryTomDick, you are right.
Pubic hair PLUS moustache on man, is a indication that, all man is supposed to be gay man.
Why do all man has moustache and pubic hair ??
In this regard, assuming intelligent beings created GAY-man with genetic engineering and design knowledge,
the very fact of the clever location of moustache is to overcome friction during oral fellatio of gay-man mouth with another gay-man-penis is testimony enough that the ORAL SEX (fellatio) is one intended by them.
You are right, Intelligent beings intend ALL man to have fellatio and cunnilingus.
Fellatio, also called fellation, is oral sex performed upon the penis.
It may be performed to induce orgasm and ejaculation of semen, or it can be used as foreplay prior to anal forms of intercourse.
Fellatio is commonly referred to as a blowjob.
Fellatio is also sometimes referred to as “giving head” or “going down.”
Other terms include “sucking dick” and “sucking off.”
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@ Harry TomDick
That was funny. You sure know how to makes jokes out of the “Dick”.
Are you one of the 33 retards here?
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WhataJoke on Mon, 1st Mar 2010 4:50 pm
{If you brav enough to write such an article, then you must be brave enough to stand up for your opinions and debate logically. Otherwise, you are just another wannabe journalist making a name for himself by blowing up contorversial issues. And please, keep your cool.]
+++++
Sir, I happen to have a very thick skin but I am very thin on patience and DO NOT SUFFER FOOLS GLADLY. I will be glad to debate with you but the TR platform is a forum where discussions take place. It is not a place for you to insult others.
++++++
Now please see:
Now not talent anymore on Mon, 1st Mar 2010 5:53 pm,
Now not talent anymore on Mon, 1st Mar 2010 6:15 pm,
Now not talent anymore on Mon, 1st Mar 2010 6:16 pm ;
Now not talent anymore on Mon, 1st Mar 2010 6:22 pm
If you note, there are information, reasoning and possible written by someone who has some substance to share. This is what a forum should be. Got it???
With the TR forum I hope to be educated on the various topical subjects that have been tabled for discussion. Thanks to contributors like “Now not talent anymore”, I am enjoying TR.
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Yawn…..typical gays tirade again
just like drug addicts, unrepentant gamblers…in constant denial.
and yet still wants to justify for their disgusful sexual practices.
The human race is doomed for extinction if there is a gay gene.
And Charles Darwin will no doubt
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Yawn…..typical gays tirade again
just like drug addicts, unrepentant gamblers…in constant denial.
and yet still wants to justify for their disgusful sexual practices.
The human race is doomed for extinction if there is a gay gene.
And Charles Darwin will no doubt jump from his grave
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Typical just like drug addicts, unrepentant gamblers…in constant denial.
Typical still wants to justify for disgusful sexual practices.
Typical is doomed for extinction.
Typical will no doubt jump from his grave.
Yup. That looks just about quite right and balanced now.
Yawn…typical tirade again
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To all that is interested to understand how the gays pressured and lobbied the APA ( American Psychiatric Association) to remove Homosexualiity as a disorder,
just Google “gay” “lobby” “APA”
You will be shocked that the pressure tactics used by the aggressive gay activists to force the APA to concede.
Gay activism is very strong in US today.It presence can be felt even in the gouvernement office.
To all Singaporeans, do not be blinded by the rhetoric by gay activists that Homosexuality is normal.
Go google the above, and you will be shocked !
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