A myth called the Indian programmer
September 27th, 2010 | 
Author: Times of India
Indian software engineers are today the face of a third-world rebellion. But what exactly do they do? That’s a disturbing question. Last week, during the annual fair of the software industry’s apex body Nasscom, no one uttered a word about India’s programmers.
The event, which brought together software professionals from around the world, used up all its 29 sessions to discuss prospects to improve the performance of software companies. Panels chose to debate extensively on subjects like managing innovation, business growth and multiple geographies.
But there was nothing on programmers, who you would imagine are the driving force behind the success of the Indian software companies. Perhaps you imagined wrong. “It is an explosive truth that local software companies won’t accept.
Most software professionals in India are not programmers, they are mere coders,” says a senior executive from a global consultancy firm, who has helped Nasscom in researching its industry reports.
In industry parlance, coders are akin to smart assembly line workers as opposed to programmers who are plant engineers. Programmers are the brains, the glorious visionaries who create things. Large software programmes that often run into billions of lines are designed and developed by a handful of programmers.
Coders follow instructions to write, evaluate and test small components of the large program. As a computer science student in IIT Mumbai puts it if programming requires a post graduate level of knowledge of complex algorithms and programming methods, coding requires only high school knowledge of the subject.
Coding is also the grime job. It is repetitive and monotonous. Coders know that. They feel stuck in their jobs. They have fallen into the trap of the software hype and now realise that though their status is glorified in the society, intellectually they are stranded.
Read more: here
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36 Responses to “A myth called the Indian programmer”
- Aiyo: This is merely speculations triggered by envy. S
- SpiritofSG: blame it on the 60% to allow them, pap, without any check and balance for them to utilize...
- sue sue: too much!!!
- wassup: yea thats a good idea. but it s sad we have to resort to this in our own (used to be our own)...
- hsien ying li: Peter: February 23, 2012 at 4:08 pm Peter(Quote) ‘This man sounds like a cry baby. He...
- gu: More blood being spilt in Ah Fart’s cul-de-sac…
- sihoyi: PRC citizen ungrateful beast.
- SociallyDemontratingProgress: I agree with what being said by ARROW.SDP does have a good alternatives on...
- OMG: Yes, even though the sarcasm reeks through my comouter screen, I support his call to “Give it a...
- MONEY DRAGONS: Money dragons drag on and on and on, just for the sake of money, only to find the richest...
- brad: Goodbye TR. Don’t trip on yourself on the way out.
- say you say me: the renewed ’spirit of sg’ will be seen at A HOUGANG BY-ELECTION. it will be...
- Super Rich: When other countries pump money into private companies, the money is converted into shares. The...
- mark lim: don tikam tikam here.cross the strait and stay there..
- mark lim: can always cross the strait if u dan like here.dan try and make our pl like them.are u more...
- say you say me: so,can the gahMEN now reconfirm that the FT POLICY is for bringing ‘talents’...
- Shingo: Can look for Chaim See Tong or not? He also lawyer since that M Ravi backed out.
- Lost respect for TRE: Gutless TRE. you keep playing with words and position.
- Fatah: Your father is great. Your brother is great. You are nothing but a spoiled brat.
- mark lim: they should have the one who purposely bang onto him disappeared from this beautiful planet.sick...
Finally, someone intellectually honest enough to call it like it is!! Bravo to the Times of India. What many of us in the IT industry have known for a long time – the Indian software programmer/engineer is really nothing but cheap labour in the computing era, the equivalent of a blue-collar worker in the industrial age.
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“Finally, someone intellectually honest enough to call it like it is!!”
————-
Aiyoh,
Sadly, seems our MIW chooses NOT to be !!!
Lim Pei Code peanuts Swee Swee before eating with Masala Tea
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wow, i was replaced by an indian programer 10 yrs ago by a local bank. they are really really really cheap and now singapore is flooded with them.
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Totally agree on this article
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Pay peanut get monkey………..
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You know what?
I am a project manager and I recruit people, from Programmers to DBAs to software architects.
This article is not completely true.
I have been trying to find talent for 2 years now, and the resumes I get are trash! I also have counter-parts in other states looking for local talent as well.
These days in North America, programmers are mostly people who go to online websites that offer free code and then they reuse it, also they go to programming forums and ask people for help.
And before you ask, yes we pay very handsomely.
There are good IT talent locally, but not alot.
Just as in India there are mere coders there are also excellent programmers.
I deal with recruiting local talent and managing accounts with IT consultants from India and they also have great talent.
This article is maybe talking about select few people or something I don’t know, but its very flawed.
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Obama said the United States now ranks 21st in science and 25th in math.
Is that also a myth?
I’m sorry but Americans are SERIOUSLY distracted by Xbox, Playstation, Dancing with the Stars, MTV, Facebook, myspace, twitter and so on and so forth.
Despite what you may think India is nowhere near from being as distracted as Americans. NOWHERE NEAR!
Furthermore Americans are addicted to big pharma!
Students have difficulty following in classes, teachers play doctor and say the have AHDH and somehow manages for them to take pills like Ritalin whereas in India teachers take the time to sit with the students and sometimes parents are involved too.
There is no comparison i’m sorry.
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Jeff, the real talented Indian programmers prefer to work in US than here. Most of them will go to US to take up their post grads and end up working there. Only the 2nd tiers come here. And many of them are here with fake degrees. There is a zaobao report today about this.
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No the real talented indian programmers prefer to have international experience in their Resumes.
Any career-oriented person would like to have international experience in his resume.
You are speaking to someone who has been in both sides of the fences, i’ve been to India a few times, I also recruit both indian consultants and local talents.
This is so very pathetic
I remember watching a video from the Young Turks just a few days ago on how everyone in the USA thinks that they are #1 when when you look at world rankings WE SUCK BALLS!!!
The entire educational system SUCKS
If you people do not realize it but end up just hating the outsiders getting jobs guess what will happen??
You will all not focus on the root cause of the problem and these outsiders will only get MORE of your jobs.
WAKE UP!!!!!!!!
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the whole FT POLICY is one BIG MYTH.
In fact,it is ONE BIG DARK COMEDY for all HONEST,HARDWORKING AND TALENTED TRUE BLUE SINKIES.
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@Jeff:
September 27, 2010 at 11:50 pm
Americans rant… There is no comparison i’m sorry.
You sound exactly like a cheap foreign trash who’s been rejected an American VISA and chose Singapore as a consequence. Obviously you have a major axe to grind against America. Your sweeping statements about the American education system and supposed superior Indian education gives you away. The Indian Education system is pretty shit theses days, just listen to the level os spoken English among Indians these days, bloody appalling, it didn’t use to be so.
No doubt there are bright Indians, just as there are bright other nationals in their own Countries, but 99.9% of Indian FTs that have come to Singapore in the last 5-10 years are complete trash, just cheap lousy labour.
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Well… many of my Indian junior colleague “coders” easily earn between $60k to $80k per annum. Its probably a salary that many poor Singaporeans wish for but cannot get. Why? Indians can code. Singaporeans can’t.
When I look around me and I feel sad. There are so many high paying jobs in Singapore. Why aren’t they filled by Singaporeans?
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Indians criticize themselves and are not ashamed of it.That is why the best brains of critical thinking comes from India
But what do the Chinese do?Always want to show the best face to the world and sweep all dirt and warts under the carpet.To Chinese problems about themselves never exist.Don’t want to loose face what.
Do you now,know why 75% Chinese always vote for PAP?Because Chinese do not like Chinese controlled Singapore to look bad to Malays lah.
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But yes, they are also “GOOD” in copying other people materials or was it “STEAL”.
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(Indians criticize themselves and are not ashamed of it.That is why the best brains of critical thinking comes from India)
Hey are your sure the best critical thinkers come from india, my,my, what a statement. More likely, they are thieves, thieving other people’s work. Look at india today, 100 years of democracy and what you get, caste at its “BEST”.
The majority of malays (its a known FACT)have voted for present gov because they are afraid of the thugs,gangsters, need the gov to rein in all gangs,(they never opposed section 55, but they want ISA to be abolished because of mat selamat) but who is supporting the gangs, buying drugs and selling its own women.
Who cares about look bad, look at malaysia, all chinese wants “IN”, why, they can have 3 cars and 3 storey, (semi d and not flats lah).
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So, these are coders, but at least they play a key role in delivering the end-product and there’s nothing wrong with being compensated for that. As the writer rightly pointed out, coders work with modules while software architects ( I won’t even call them programmers) design the overall software. It is natural that in any project, there is a one to many relationship for the software architect and coders. Think the equivalent of a construction project. There are different roles in a team. If you wish to see coders as construction workers, it’s your opinion but what matters is that they are needed and they add value.
Which is why I don’t understand the purpose of this article. Is it to belittle Indian software personnel? If so, that is truly uncalled for. We can be against the FTA-induced pressure to hire FTs or the ruling party’s liberal immigration policies, but taking a stand like this is counter-productive. In terms of IT facilities and training, local IT personnel have no lack of that, and should be able to hold their own against those from India or other countries. And if coding is monotonous, our IT personnel can go higher up the value chain, and take up positions for team lead, project manager, or software architect.
Rather than taking potshots at FTs whom we will still need even if the ruling party is no longer in charge, focus on paving the way for a change of inept leaders and a stronger opposition voice that represents and balances the interests of Singaporeans and Singapore.
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If the chinese wants “FACE” then the c/indonesians and c/malaysians will flock here by the millions lah.
What about the indians and the malays, they cannot have face because when malu, they can hide,color cannot see, lah.
Indians are the worst kind, otherwise why would a white man coin this,”see an indian and cobra, first kill…..” you know what lah.
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According to a report from NASSCOM (National Association of Softrware and Services Companies), a trade body and the chamber of commerce in India, only 10% of fresh graduates from India are actually employable. A similar survey of MBA and engineering graduates reveals only 25% of them are employable:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Home/Education/Second-rung-B-schools-churning-out-unemployable-graduates/articleshow/6105359.cms
In other words, the bulk of the Indian graduates are not employable even by their own trade body’s standard !!! And since they can’t get employment at home and can’t very well go to US, they end up here !!!
Pls pass this news around. This news is also a revelation to me.
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I work on improvising code, I’ve taken over programming code from India before and worked on it.
Heres an example, a 1600 line code program I’ve manage to rewrite to 26 lines.
The program execution time went down from 2 min+ to lesser then 5 seconds.
Now it makes me wonder whether they were billed and received payment in relation to number of lines of code…
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To Jeff:
No the real talented indian programmers prefer to have international experience in their Resumes.
I’m in the IT business myself and used to go to the bay area (silicon valley) often. I’ve met many Indian programmers there. They seemed to be very happy working in the States and have no intentions of moving elsewhere.
If you people do not realize it but end up just hating the outsiders getting jobs guess what will happen??
I don’t hate them per se. I just have problems with the PAP Govt for bringing planeloads of SUB-STANDARD outsiders into Singapore and making them immigrants.
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Andrew,
99.9% of Indian FTs that have come to Singapore in the last 5-10 years are complete trash, just cheap lousy labour.
Read the NASSCOM report. Only 10% of fresh graduates from India are actually employable. A similar survey of MBA and engineering graduates reveals only 25% of them are employable. The rest are totally unemployable.
Now you know why…
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To THIS IS THE CRITICAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CHINESE AND INDIANS,
Please don’t bring race issues into the discussion. If you are a Singaporean, you wouldn’t want your country to be overrun by FTs too, be they Indian nationals, PRCs, Viets, Burmese, Pinoys, etc.
If you have carried a rifle before, stand by the side who have slogged through NS and still have reservist obligation to do some more…
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If it’s coders they want, then there are many in Singapore who can be trained to code. It’s not as hard as people think it is. All you have to do is be given a specific task to perform and the parameters that your section of code is supposed to work with.
People don’t need degrees to code in C# or C++. Anyone can pick up a IDG “C++ for Dummies” book and learn how to code.
But PROGRAMMING is different. Though it may sound like the same to the layman, programming involves planning the flow and processes of a piece of software – literally it is software design.
The assembly workers and plant managers analogy is very apt. Many Indians are coders and not software designers. This is true since I deal with them from time to time. To cut the long story short, I get the feeling that all they are doing is TRANSLATING from English to C++. They expect me to give them everything, down to the subroutines.
Of course, what we expect a programmer/software designer to do is to come up with all this given the requirements of the client. A software designer assumes the client has no idea how to program a computer, and takes general requirements from the client and designs software to fit the client’s needs.
About the cut and paste programming, if it’s free and online, there is no harm in using it, UNLESS it compromises the functionality of the program. If you can find code that works perfectly for your software, then why not use it instead of hand-coding from scratch?
Usually these pieces of code online have been optimised and tested to ensure it is bug-free and efficient. It’s just a smart way of doing things. But the programmer must know what exactly is going on if he cuts and pastes code, and must be ready to modify the code should the results fall short of expectations.
This demands that the programmer who uses code found online to fully understand the programming language used, especially with pieces of code that are poorly commented. Code is sometimes optimised to the point that it is rendered hard to understand by humans (especially true with C++).
Coming back to the point, most Indian “programmers” only have experience in coding and lack software design skills. Although they are skilled, these jobs are like the equivalent of factory workers in the IT industry. Similarly, system admins are the office boys of the IT industry (and mostly filled by Indians and Filipinos).
Singaporeans can be trained to upgrade their skills by learning how to code. That will reduce our dependence on these so-called “foreign talents”, and create jobs for “O” and “A” level holders. PMETs will not be left in a lurch if these jobs were made available to them, and they won’t mind so much the reduction in salary, as the work is done in a comfortable air-conditioned room (for the computers’ sake, not theirs). It also makes a good way to keep our older workers employable as coding requires people to stay mentally alert and exercise their mental facilities with minimal physical effort. This is a boon for the older generation who may not be physically fit but still mentally active, and prevent their grey cells from wasting away.
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to: THIS IS THE CRITICAL DIFFERENCE…
Brother, I am an Indian by race, but I always feel that there is a lot we can learn from other races, just as other races can learn from us.
I see a lot of things amongst the Chinese (yes, even the PRCs) that I feel I can learn from, especially the hard work ethic, the resourcefulness and the willingness to sacrifice.
I see a lot of things amongst the Malays I can learn from, the strong family bonding, the willingness to step back and not be caught in the rat race.
I see a lot of things amongst other Indians (both local and foreign born) that I can learn from, especially problem solving skills, and certainly the love for fun and risks. (Although I admit sometimes we get a little bit carried away).
There is good things to learn from any race, or any group of people. The ones at the top want us to see each other as chinese, malays and Indians, as locals and foreigners and even as new and old citizens. We should see each others as humans first, Singaporeans second and only then as Chinese, Malays etc. Race is a silly reason to hate a group of people. My wife has Malay and Afghan blood in her. My daughter will be a mix of South Indian, Afghan and Malay. It does not make me love her one bit less.
To those who post hate-filled comments, ask yourself why you hate a group of people so much. Whose fault is it that they are here? I know many Indians from India and PRCs from China who are genuinely nice people. They tell me of the problems they faced in coming here, and it is not as easy as just deciding one day to uproot your entire family and move somewhere. Even if it is to a better place, it requires a lot of courage and risk taking. Most of the Indians here simply want a better life for their families, just like our ancestors did for us. I am sure that’s true of the PRCs, Filipinos, Caucasians, Thais, Vietnamese, Malaysians, Ceylonese and Bangladeshis. Is that a reason to hate them? Shouldn’t our focus be more on our government that allows anyone with a pulse in and gives away PR to them like candy? We have taken out our anger on the group that is the least likely to help our cause in the long run. We risk being branded as racist and ethnophobic, and turn our anger on a group of people simply because they came here on the invitation of our government. How will that benefit us in any way?
Which leads me to the question, directed at those who claim to be ‘true blue Singaporean’. What defines a Singaporean? Are we defining it purely by birth? If so many of our parents and grandparents wouldn’t be Singaporean. If we define it as ‘going through NS’, then our sisters would not qualify. If we define it as ‘having stayed in Singapore for X no. of years’, then we would have to include all those ‘new’ citizens who have been here for X no of years and who have chosen to remain here and not hurl abuse at them. Or have we reached a point where, because we do not know the answer, we have chosen to define us as ‘not Foreign talent/trash’? Because if that is so, it’s a very poor definition indeed.
To be honest, I rather consider a new citizen who contributes to the society and sets up roots here as a Singaporean than a traitor like Mas Selamat who was born here.
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aiyah
i worked in USA as a IT analyst
i found the the american invest and outsource their IT to India is because they speak english and is cheaper.
they are no smarter in anyway to the american
the american told me if they are smarter
Why didn’t computers invented in INDIA
who started computer technology
if the most chinese in china speak english
the american will outsource to them anyway
the india IT is good is because they are economically CHEAP
they are no smarter that anyone
technology computer DO NOT invented in INDIA
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I am a ‘True Blue Singaporean’. So what if i were to call myself that, anyone here has a problem with that here?
‘Stop whining, go eat some cheese’!
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I would call somebody a true-blue singaporean if he/she has parents/grandparents who reside in singapore, and become singapore citizens when singapore gains her independence…
That was the time when nobody knows what kind of future singapore has, and these people stayed and brave the unknown to build a future for us, the descendants..
Of coures, we would not deny new citizens the right to be true-blue citizens too (as long as they are committed to stay and contribute to singapore), but as I see it, those who stayed here for umpteen years and still choose to be prs are only here for one purpose.. They want to enjoy singapore’s economic successes and still want a retain a “bridge” for when they decided to return back home.. And this includes those who obtain singapore citizenship, but knowing for sure that it would be very easy to give that up and re-acquire their native citizenships..
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@Kojakbt
Read ,My Sin Chew.Com
http://www.mysinchew.com/node/35679 “Chinese people are highly reluctant to admit their errors, and can produce a myriad of reasons to cover their mistakes. There’s an old adage: ‘Contemplate your faults behind closed doors’. Whose faults? The guy’s next door, of course!
“The Ugly Chinaman (醜陋的中國人)–delivered at the Iowa University in the U.S. a quarter of a century ago. –was published the following year in 1985 as a book together with his other essays and translated into English in 1992, Bo Yang asserted boldly, “Chinese people are the same everywhere.”
http://www.amazon.com/Ugly-Chinaman-Crisis-Chinese-Culture/dp/1863731164
The Ugly Chinaman and the Crisis of Chinese Culture [Paperback]
Po-Yang“Bo Yang (柏楊, born 1920) is a Mainlander-born writer based in Taiwan.One of his best known books is The Ugly Chinaman (醜陋的中國人). During his imprisonment, Bo Yang wrote a number of works on Chinese history.
Po Yang writes—
Over the past 4000 years, China has produced only one great thinker: Confucius. In the 2500 years since his death, China’s literati have done little more than tack on footnotes to the theories propounded by Confucius and his disciples. Rarely have they contributed anything original to the body of Confucian thought, simply because the traditional culture did not allow it. The minds of the literati were stuck at the bottom of an intellectual stagnant pond, the soy paste vat of Chinese culture. As the contents of this vat grew more and more putrid, the resulting stench was absorbed by the Chinese people. Since the many problems in this opaque, bottomless vat could not be solved by individuals exercising their own reason and intelligence, the literati had to ape other people’s way of thinking, or be influenced by other schools of thought. A fresh peach placed in a vat full of putrescent soy paste will soon wither away and turn into a dry turd.”
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Isn’t them the reason behind why POSB/DBS ATMs all crashed at once a few months back?
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Hello, forgot about the wasted years? cultural revolution, wake up.
You are into self denial, thinking not one great chinese mind is at work after confucious, suggest you take a look at library, chinese section. How many indian, malay mind is at work ??? Pls tell us.
Don’t jump to conclusion because someone said this and wrote that, you have a “CLOSE” mind.
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Anyone “BORN” here is 2nd gen and “THAT” makes him and her, true singaporean, even if they did not do n.s. due to being female, born with health problems, BUT CERTAINLY NOT SOMEONE FROM MALAYSIA,CHINA,INDIA,BURMA,PHILLIPINES, USA, etc etc as these are “REJECTS” + “FREE LOADERS” where they came from.
GO HOME ALL REJECTS !!!
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@Valkyrie:
September 28, 2010 at 12:12 pm
I am not from IT background. THANK YOU for your very informative comments about programming, and good suggestions on how S’porean human resources can be utilized.
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@Logicalman:
September 28, 2010 at 9:40 am
So, these are coders, but at least they play a key role in delivering the end-product and there’s nothing wrong with being compensated for that. As the writer rightly pointed out, coders work with modules while software architects ( I won’t even call them programmers) design the overall software. It is natural that in any project, there is a one to many relationship for the software architect and coders. Think the equivalent of a construction project. There are different roles in a team. If you wish to see coders as construction workers, it’s your opinion but what matters is that they are needed and they add value.
Which is why I don’t understand the purpose of this article. Is it to belittle Indian software personnel? If so, that is truly uncalled for. We can be against the FTA-induced pressure to hire FTs or the ruling party’s liberal immigration policies, but taking a stand like this is counter-productive. In terms of IT facilities and training, local IT personnel have no lack of that, and should be able to hold their own against those from India or other countries. And if coding is monotonous, our IT personnel can go higher up the value chain, and take up positions for team lead, project manager, or software architect.
Rather than taking potshots at FTs whom we will still need even if the ruling party is no longer in charge, focus on paving the way for a change of inept leaders and a stronger opposition voice that represents and balances the interests of Singaporeans and Singapore.
====================================================================
i think you got it all wrong, whether coder, programer, we are being displaced or replaced by them, are you saying that singaproean can not do coding, programing? just because they are cheap that why they can replace us? if the government did not open this flood gate we will still keep our job.
the one who replace me know nuts about the software i created for the company, end up i still have to go back to my ex office, out of good will, i should have refused the hr request, to coach him on the architect and the programing for more than a month.
furthermore, most of them are employed due to the fact that they say they are software engineer, thus are better than us and can handle more and sophisticated job than us, singaporean.
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Time’s changed! unlike 10/15 years ago, nowadays,excellent software engineers, coders, programmers in China no longer come to Sg lah, they can get high payment in their homeland. for example, three months ago, I lost one of my best engineers,who had been working for me a few years, I paid him S$4500/m. but he found a job in Shanghai and get a salary of 20,000RMB(about 4000S$). you know, 20,000RMB can have a much better quality of life than the S$4500 in Sg.
In recent years, in IT industry, you should have seen more and more Indian “IT FTs” emerging in Sg. But do you agree that IT products qualities are degrading now. Do we still dare to claim that Sg is an IT centre which I remember was a goal many years ago.
Do you believe the true IT experts or talents could surge from poor developing countries, in which have you guys ever seen or heard of any well-known Operating System or Application Software Product or Protocol/Standard was invented?
I have worked with a great number of IT people,from USA,Finland,French,Germany,Russia,China,India,Indonesia,Philippines,Malaysia,Thailand,Myanmar,Sri Lanka… I’d like to say in honesty that many so called “software engineer”,”IT talent” from India and the other countries afterward are merely coders, or blue-collar workers in IT, some are even fresh graduates without any genuine working experience. yet to surprise me, I have met dozens of these newbies in Sg!
India is often described as an IT giant, but in eyes of our senior IT experts, It’s just a exaggerated balloon like the “great” Common Wealth Sports Game that they are holding now.
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Maybe at the start, there were real Indian programmers. But as the myth grows, and they get hired overseas easily, basically they are now high-cost, but unproductive. I have work with indians from india, and they are the most unproductive to work with. They spend days arguing over irrelevant definitions and details, lots of talk, lots of promise, always saying not a problem, easy. But so easy that in the end, nothing gets done. In project teams whether in education or at work, I realise that it is best for them to form their own team among themselves. Else they just leech on other nationalities’ work. In their own teams, they can then create little ‘commonwealth games’, all talking and waiting for each other to do work. I think that’s the best strategy.
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alvinlwh:
September 28, 2010 at 7:17 pm
Isn’t them the reason behind why POSB/DBS ATMs all crashed at once a few months back?
—————-
Sharp truth!
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